HI everyone. Need your opinion on a bid today for a take over on doing plant maintenance. This client has 45 plants nothing fancy just your basic plants Janet Craigs,Corn Trees, Dragon Trees, Peace Lilly, snakes. I put in a for $275 a month was that to low for me I think it was a good deal and they know I will raise the maintence fee $5 for every new plant they add on. They were fine with that. What is your feeling?

Does this include guaranteed replacements? You’re in New York City, right?

Sheila

Paul,

There are so many variables, snd you haven’t given us much info.

In addition to Sheila’s question about guarantees, what size are the plants, mostly 10", mostly 14", half and half or some other ratio? What’s your service frequency, weekly, bi-weekly, every 10 days? How long do estimate each service call will take? What’s the condition of the plants now...and how soon will you have to provide replacements if you’re guaranteeing the plants?

Steve

Also, how far away is this from your office or other accounts ?

If this is a takeover .... are you going to have to do some refurb work beforehand ? On a scale of 1-10 (10 is best) what are the condition of the plants ?

I’m just thinking basic math. Let’s say you value your services at $30.00 per hour. Let’s say after you hit the front door of this account it takes you 2 minutes per plant to professionally service each plant - no splash and dash. 45 plants x 2 minutes equals 1.5 hours per visit for service time only.
So at $30 per hour you just made 45 bucks for your labor time. If you service every week, multiply your service time by 4.33. That equals 6.5 hours of service time per month. At $30 per hour your raw service cost is $195 per month. You charge the client $275. $275 minus $195 =
$80 per month raw profit on service labor only. That’s $960 profit per year for this account for service cost only. But ...........
wait a minute. What about all those other costs: replacements, rent, insurance,supplies,uniforms,phone, postage, gas, advertising, accountants, lawyers, and I’ll bet you don’t work 9 to 5 so that 30 bucks an hour is greatly reduced - probably by half. I’d take that $960 raw service profit and divide it by 12 and add it to the monthly cost to the customer to cover all the other costs. That would be $355 per month I’d bill the customer. In fact, if they can afford $355 per month, I’d start at $375 - hey it’s only 20 bucks more a month. And that’s more profit in your pocket!

I was thinking along the same lines as you Bob, but I seem to recall Paul mentioning in a previous post that he services some of his accounts bi-weekly. That being the case, his profit margin is actually greater than yours in this example.

I really think that we need more information from Paul in order to provide an accurate analysis of this accounts pricing.

On another note, don’t know when you retired... and perhaps you were just using $30 an hour for demonstrating your pricing formula, but I’d sure hope that there’s noone out there billing time at $30 an hour in 2007!

Steve

OK here is some more information. First I service all my accounts weekly. In fact I took a survey with my current clients seeing what they liked better weekly and bi-weekly all said weekly. And law firm I got in Sep also said he wanted weekly. This one I put the bid in for is weekly plant service.

Now how I came up with $275 is I figure I am there about 1.5 hours a week 6 hours a month. I charge $35 an hour times 6 hours is $210. Now I have $65 extra dollars. If I need to stay a little longer then 6 hours this allows me to do so. Also replacements are included. I am a small company so I don’t have the expenses the big ones have that is why I can charge a less expensive price for plant maintenance. They are mostly 10 inch plants. You have Six 14 inch ones ( 3 Corn Trees, 2 Janert Craigs,and 1 Ficus) A couple of 6 inch table plants. And a couple of topsiders. All my plants are guarantee except the Ficus tree. Those trees I am carefull with and 1 person has in his office a Pothos with Mealy Bug that is not under my guarantee either.

Paul,

Look at your numbers again, if you are working 1.5 hrs week, that works out to be 78 hrs yr. Based on your numbers you are working 6 hrs per year for nothing.
Work out your weekly cost x 52 weeks, divide this by 12 months and you have your true monthly cost.
Don’t fall into the trap of low balling to get accounts.
Also, should you have a few or more replacements, your figures do not leave room for profit, equipment purchase, future growth etc.
A good business exec once told me "look at today and prepare for tomorrow" meaning look to the future and plan accordingly.
Take care and good luck!
Stu

OK...at the expense of being told I spend too much time here... Oh what the heck, here goes.

Paul, sorry, I don’t know where I got the idea you said that you serviced some of your accounts bi-weekly, but thanks for providing the additional information.

It’ll help us give you more valuable feedback.


First thing I’d like to clarify for you is that if you spend 1.5 hours per week servicing an account, that doesn’t equate to 6 hours per month! You MUST multiply by 4.33 as retired Bob mentioned to allow for the months that have five weeks. !.5 hours per week actually equates to 6.5 hours per month (annualized)

I don’t think you’re charging enough for weekly service, assuming that you want to grow, but that’s neither here nor there.

Here’s a thought that you might want to consider though.

Since it seems that your client is "price sensitive" and given the pallette of plant material (except for that ficus and the spaths) you could actually LOWER their monthly service fee, increase your hourly rate, and realize GREATER profit margins if you went to bi-weekly service on this account.

Give it a try. The reality of our business is that if you specify the correct plants for your application, you can push them (the plants) to two week service intervals, reduce your clients expense (they’ll like that), gain additional time that you can expense to other clients (you’ll like that), and everyone should be happy.

Oh, and you’ll realize greater profit margins on the account too.

Steve


PS... Thanks to Barb Helfman for teaching me that a hundred years ago ;) (hope I got it right)

Paul,

Try puting your accounts on a 10-day schedule. It’s not weekly and it’s not bi-weekly, but it allows you to add more maintenance days to your monthly schedule. I used to be going to my accounts weekly until I talked to Barb Helfman. WOW! She told me that there is no reason I need to be going weekly. "You’re overwatering your plants!" She was right. I was worried about what my clients would say if I started visiting them every 10 days and not every week. Barb told me just to start doing it, and if anyone has a problem with it that I should tell them that they are paying for the end result (guaranteed healthy plants) and not for a weekly visit. I had to change a little wording in my contract from "weekly" to "as needed". Needless to say, I have nearly all my clients on a 10-day schedule, and NOBODY has complained. I have only 2 on a weely schedule, and that is because their scheduling conflicts with the 10-day schedule. ALSO, by switching to a 10-day schedule, I was able to increase the number route days from just 5 to 7! Pretty sweet! I’m not visiting my clients as often, the plants are doing just fine, I have fewer replacements, and I’m making more cashola!

If you want to know how to do the 10-day schedule, e-mail me and I’ll explain it in greater detail.

Paul:

I introduced 10 Day Maintenance to the industry about 25 years ago, giving several seminars at industry meeting in the 1980’s
Use the "search" function and put in "10 Day" in the "messages" and you will come up with several threads that have my name associated with them going back several years. Read them all and you should get a good education on how it works and why it works to the satisfaction to the customer.
Rick W.

Rick is absolutely correct. He is one of those creative, problem solvers that has shaped our industry. I was already trying to do every other week maintenance when he told me 25 years ago about every ten day. I mixed the three intervals depending on the accountfor my own company and have counseled ’scapers to do the same thing ever since.
What always amazed me was that everyone who is not doing it, tells you "it won’t work". I’ve actually fought (nicely) with some for years. Then they try it and tell me they wished they had done it long ago. Go figure.
For a lot of people, biweekly and ten day schedules have been the salvation of their businesses. Rick and I figure you all owe us 10% of what you’ve saved/made over the past 25 years, right Rick? Meanwhile, the real key is to change the frequency where possible, keep the fee to client the same as if you were going every week (what good is it to change frequency and then charge less), and go for it, Tigers.

We have been on 10 day maintenance for years. We have a couple of ’static’
routes to address the needs of high profile hotel and building lobby clients.
You don’t need to subirragate as much as you would for longer maintenance
intervals (though some is definately recommended) and I find it just does not
matter to the clients, they want results, not process generally. Best part is these
holiday weeks, and there are soooo many of them through the year. You just
’bump’ the route to the next day. For example if you do weekly Monday through
Friday service, what happens to the ’Monday’ route on Labor Day?

Barb, nice try but no way on the 10 percent thing. But I’m good for an Arnold
Palmer (ice tea and lemonade) at next year’s Calscape in Palm Springs.. fair
enough?

Matthew:
Can I get one also next Sept. And for all others I will wire you my bank account’s direct deposit number....and yes I will share it with you Barb.
Rick

Done

"....keep the fee to client the same ’as if’ you were going every week (what good is it to change frequency and then charge less),"

’Um, because the client will feel jipped by you not showing up as often.
I mean it’s not like it’s stealth, you amend the contract to show in writing you’re now going to be showing up less yet asking for the same amount of money.
Sounds like those property managers are fresh out of school.

In our business, appearance is everything, most property managers and ESPECIALLY residential clients don’t know as much about a healthy looking plant versus an ok one but they sure know if they have seen you that week or not.

Well, 3 weeks out of the month you ARE there every week. Monday the first week, Wednesday the 2nd week, Friday the 3rd week, skip a week, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, repeat cycle. No one has complained to me...or for that matter really even noticed. If asked, I would simply say that their plants are guaranteed, no matter how often I come. As someone said, it’s not about the process, it’s about the results.

Previous Poster:
Your not supposed to be charging the client to show up weekly, and you should not be selling your service on that basis. Your supposed to be charging the client for keeping their foliage clean and healthy and replacing it when necessary. They should not care if you can do that by showing up weekly or monthly. Your contract should NOT state that you will service the plants weekly, but rather as necessary and when required. They are paying for insurance on the plants and keeping them in first rate shape, NOT for your number of your visits per month. I know of some some contractors using sub-irrigation that can get by with monthly service on some accounts, and they charge the same as their competitors who service weekly. It’s all on how you are selling your service, and residential clients are no different than commercial accounts.

Rick W.

Question - especially if you are a small, one-person operation, isn’t there some added value to showing up weekly, at least for the accounts where someone who cares will see you?

It’s an opportunity to schmooze, dazzle them with your charm and talent, sell some add-ons, and hopefully get some referrals. It’s also gives one an extra opportunity to pick up on the pulse of the company, to notice if they might be planning a move or merger or big cost-cutting measures, etc.

I realize that one is guaranteeing results, but I think that some markets and some clients may expect, or at least prefer, that face time.

Sheila

hmmmmm this thread has taken an interesting twist.

I understand the concept of less frequent service and what you’re saying about not lowering existing prices for existing customers because they are paying for an end result and not a number of visits and we do exactly that at our company, with a mix of weekly, mostly bi-weekly and a few twice weekly accounts.

There is a bit of a contradiction/confusion here though and I think that’s what "but your paying..." is talking about and now it has me thinking.

Thoughts on the following please.

Hypothetical example #1:
Account is guaranteed maintenance and is serviced weekly and takes about an hour to service. 52 service calls per year.


Hypothetical example #2:
Account is guaranteed maintenance and is serviced bi-weekly and takes about an hour to service. 26 service calls per year.

Hypothetical example #3:
Account is guaranteed maintenance and is serviced on 10 day rotation and takes about an hour to service. 36 service calls per year.

All three are new accounts and we will start service next month, and cooincidentally, all three have the same exact plants, are same distance from our office and have similar lighting. (One has a crazy lady that we’re not particularly fond of but that’s neither here nor there)

Are WE saying that WE would charge each of these new clients the same price?

In our case the answer would be NO, but I can only speak for us.

The real "difficulty" here and I think that’s what "but your paying..." is taking issue with is that there is a "difficulty quotient" that must be considered on an account by account basis when "transitioning" existing clients (whom are accustomed to weekly service) from weekly to something less.

That’s where the salesmanship that Rick refers to comes into play "but your saying..." When transitioning your existing clients, there will likely be some resistance from some! It’s your job to justify the transition in a positive manner to them.

For example, you explain that you will actually be SAVING them money, because you have been a real-nice-guy to them over the past five years and you only increased their price one teeny-tiny-amount one time in five years! How nice for them :) Of course NOW, with fuel prices what they are and insurance rates what they are and...you could go on... you would most definitely NEED to increase their monthly service fee to continue visiting weekly. So you say. "Going to bi-weekly will actually be SAVING you money Ms. Smith as we won’t have to increase your price AND you’ll still have the same healthy plants with the same EXACT guarantees as before"

Will you have some that will still resist? YES, and you’ll have to do the numbers and decide whether they are worth keeping, or whether they should be replaced with a "higher yeilding" client, or whether they are worth bowing to and offering a SLIGHT reduction in price for the change in service frequency.

The airlines do this with their pricing. Same seat, same destination, different price. THEY have us convinced it’s OK and it is!

Same thing with us. If you have clients that won’t pay you what you are worth or what you need to charge. Replace them with ones that appreciate and value your service more.

Steve

Sheila,

"...isn’t there some added value to showing up weekly..."

ABSOLUTELY! As long as the client is willing to compensate you sufficiently for doing so.

We have accounts that we service TWICE weekly, because the client doesn’t want to see one little yellow leaf on an aralia or any slightly disheveled top dressing.

It’s all OK as long as the client is willing to pay :)

Steve (again!)

I’m not an attorney, but my brother is, and I have had some enlightening discussions with him over the years about contract boilerplate. Rick’s statement about not specifying service frequency (i.e., weekly, 10 day interval, biweekly) has merit in the real world, but it potentially poses a thorny issue with respect to interpretation of contract language.

Let’s take as an example an allied trade: janitorial services. They service the same facilities as we do, and there are many parallels between what they do and how they do it and what we do. Janitorial contracts typically specify how many workers are assigned to what functions at a given frequency and at what rate of compensation. For instance, "recyclers" (responsible for emptying paper and corrugated recycling bins and containers, as well as the humble trash can under each desk) might be compensated to the contractor at one rate, while the vacuum cleaners and floor moppers and surface dusters are compensated at another. Each is assigned to a specific area on a specific day (for example, recyclers on Tuesdays and Thursdays for four hours each shift). Failure to adhere to these schedules would be considered breach of contract, since the contract specifies remuneration based on the number of employee-hours spent on each task per week or per month.

In the case of an interiorscape contract, some companies try to make things more objective and specific by specifying weekly or biweekly service visits in their agreements. And some property management companies submit their own contract documents to us to be executed, and they specify the scope of work and other terms and conditions, not us (although we implicitly concur by signing them, subject to the negotiation of any changes we deem important).

But using vague language, such as "service visits as necessary and when required" could prove troublesome at some point down the road. Suppose a property manager who is receiving routine 10-day service visits as part of a "necessary and required" agreement decides that 10 day intervals are too long, and dust is accumulating on a 5-day interval, so he/she insists that, to comply with the "necessary and required" language in the contract, you have to have a tech visit every 5 days to service his/her plants. What do you do then? If you decline or try to charge more for your service, and the manager objects, what then?

My feeling is that weekly service is NOT generally necessary from a horticultural services perspective, but it can be very positive from a customer relations point of view. Seeing the tech every week on the same day can create a feeling within the client of being well cared for...people are creatures of habit, let’s face it. And while most plants won’t need water every week, watering is only a fraction of what we do for our clients. Dusting, trimming, turning plants to the light, pruning, pest scouting and CLIENT HAND-HOLDING are among the other valuable and necessary functions our service personnel are responsible for. If it was all about watering, I could easily subirrigate just about every plant in every account and maybe train a chimpanzee to fill them up every two weeks. It’s the value-added part of teching that makes them our most valuable employees.

As for what happens during holiday-shortened or weather-impacted weeks, well, we have four-day routes so we almost always have a free day for such contingencies...and then there’s always me, Technician Numero Uno. The buck stops here four or five weeks a year, on average, and I’m happy for the opportunity (excuse?) to get out and see our clients and their plants up close and personal. Yes, we could do more business on a biweekly or 10-day schedule, but could we do it as well, in the opinion of our clients? I think not.

Clem

Steve:

In hypothetical examples #2 and #3, I believe you will be spending slightly
MORE time than 1 hour per service visit. There is more water delivery,
whether you are employing sub-irrigation or top watering. Slightly more
cleaning, tipping, pruning, etc. Overall it likely will add up to the same 52
hours per year. And THAT is what the client pays for. What WE as business
owners/managers pay for is travel time, gas, administrative behind the
scenes detail, you know, the HIDDEN costs of business.

If you are putting in your proposals and contracts that you are providing
weekly service and use another scheduling method, then yes, that is
dishonest. Rick is correct in saying we are providing guaranteed plant
insurance. When our company receives a request for a quote over the
internet, often the prospective client says something like "we would like a
proposal for 24 plants and containers, something colorful for the conference
room and weekly service" Right up front we tell them "our schedule for
service is 10 day, may we provide you with a design and quote?" I can think
of very few if any times the client in such an instance gives it a second
thought.

Oh, and an aside to "interesting/twist" regarding the "sales pitch" for reducing frequency/increasing hourly rate (which is what that amounts to):

If you haven’t been increasing your rates in line with real-world COLA increases all along, you haven’t been just a "real-nice-guy" (although it seems to console you to think of it that way), you’ve just been a "real-lousy-businessman". Trying that old approach is the favorite refuge of a scoundrel...you’re trying to shift blame/guilt onto the client for your lack of foresight (or even hindsight) in building in fair and reasonable price adjustments into your rate proposals/contract renewals to cover things like fuel costs, insurance, employee salary escalations, etc., and make yourself look like a prince in the process! That’s shameful, and most clients will see right through it (eventually, if not immediately, since most of your clients will probably be too taken aback and embarrassed FOR you in the moment to confront you with these facts about your obvious lack of business acumen and integrity initially, but oh, they’ll remember it and it will come back to bite you sooner or later...just ask a bunch of our clients who had this sort of thing pulled on them once upon a time by a former vendor). You do your business no favors by strong-arming a good, loyal client into accepting what looks like (if it walks like a duck..) an unfair change in your business relationship that benefits only you.

When I say "you", I don’t mean you personally necessarily...substitute the word "any interiorscaper" for "you" and you get my drift.

Clem

Clem,

I hear what you are saying ....... but with my company the client does see "us" quite frequently, even with the 2,3,4 week schedules that we do. They see the Tech’s when they are scheduled on that account ...... later that week there is a chance that I will walk through and do some QC, sometimes when I do that I see if the client needs anything else, wants to add anything, change from Broms to Orchids, are they happy with the colors, etc .... Then that same week or the next they may see my "Replacement Tech" if they have anything that needs replacing, he also changes out all moss, replaces or adds dirt (subirrigation) anything that the regular Tech doesn’t do in her normal duties .... or, they may see the Replacement Tech doing their color rotations. If you have uniforms the client WILL see your company. And think how good they feel with all those people paying all that attention to their little ol plants.
A minute here and a minute there.

Steve and Rick are absolutely right, it’s all in the presentation. It was hard for me to wrap my head around that at first too ... but once I did it I wished I’d done it years earlier. And like Steve, my clients don’t have a choice unless they want to pay more.

No offense Paul, but giving your clients a survey to see if they want weekly or otherwise ........ of course most are going to pick weekly. I don’t give my clients that much control. It’s about the end result, not how you figured out how to get there.

OUCH CLEM!

I assure you that I’m a real nice guy, not a real-lousy-businessman or a scoundrel and although I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, I wouldn’t exactly say that I have an obvious lack of business acumen and integrity!

Oh, you weren’t talking about me. Sorry ;)

Matthew,

Good point you make. So then, what you’re saying is that if one normally assigns lets say 10 minutes per plant (well, not really but you know what I mean) for weekly service, one would assign 20 minutes per plant for bi-weekly service and somewhere in between for every ten days!

To be honest (and I can) I hadn’t really factored extra service time per plant into the equation, but it does make sense, although I’m not convinced that it would still take the same 52 hours per year.

Wonder if anyone has done some time and efficiency studies on this?

I tell you, one never stops learning, does one!

I go shopping for a few hours and look what happens. OK, let’s slow down a bit and consider a couple of things. First, every other week or every ten day maintenance ON AVERAGE takes more time each individual visit. Whoever pointed out the extra time to apply water, clean the plants, dust the containers. So it is not a 50% savings of labor and gas and oil etc. I had a great ’scaper friend who kept meticulous records of this stuff and she found that she save around 35% of labor time on the account over the course of the year, 25% on replacement costs thanks to less "overwatering", and about the expected 50% savings on vehicle costs. In addition, she found , like most of us who did this, that a lot of the time your tech is making nice to people who work there but have absolutely nothing to do with deciding who takes care of the plants. More often your contact is in another building or elsewhere. And, a lot of contacts really are busy and don’t have time to say more than "Hi" if they are on site.

Most of the contacts wanted me to be there ASAP if they ever had a problem or called and either Dan or myself always were. They wanted me to contact them well in advance to plan that years Holiday Decor, and wanted me to notify them well in advance of any price increases so they could put it in the Budget. My contacts almost always had a boss over them that they answer to and there had better not be any complaints from their boss to them. In other words, I stayed in contact by phone with occasional visits and we made every effort to have the plants and containers in great shape. If we were using pesticide or doing some cleaning with the electrostatic sprayer, we made sure to notify them in advance and ask before we just went ahead on our own. They had phone numbers they could call and get an answer right away and so on.

And, (get ready ’cause you knew I’d bring it up), anything that gives you and them the same results AND is more environmentally correct (less fuel, less carbon emissions), just might be the perfect way to go.
Bottom line for me was that once we started "customizing" maintenance frequencies and still kept the quality and response time up there, we found that the client 9 times out of 10 couldn’t have cared less. And, this is the one and only practise you can put in place that will get you were you should be dollarwise since I still find the newer, smaller companies still are not charging enough. Lastly, remember it is your business and you can do whatever you want. There are 100’s of ways to skin a cat.
OK. Now I’ll sit back and wait for the comments.

Hi, Barb,

This is obviously not a black-and-white issue, but each company has to determine whether it jibes with their style and business approach. If you’re already billing at the high end of the scale, it behooves you to be giving a great amount of attention to the clients paying your bills. I find that many of our clients (probably around 75%) have contact persons who are highly engaged with us in dealing with their interiorscape contracts...not because there are constant problems, but because it’s part of their job to do so. When our tech is in their facility, they want to know about it and often (maybe even weekly) speak with the tech about things. In addition, many of them will call me periodically to ask about upgrades, additions, etc., so we have a very current communication line going with the vast majority of them. And if they don’t see the tech on the same day each week, they will often call me to ask about it. That’s just the way it is with small office interiorscaping...it’s much more up-close-and-personal than large facility work in many ways.

I would love to try the 10-day schedule someday on a few accounts just to see what would happen. How would you go about it if you were I?

Clem

Clem et al,
For ten day service you set up routes on a Monday /Thurs and and Tues/Friday plan with the middle day, Weds being reserved for weekly or biweekly service accounts. This way Accounts A get maintained Monday on Week 1 and Thursday on Week 2, and Account B gets seen on Tues on Week 1 and Friday on week 2. Then Account C, an account visited either weekly or every other week gets seen on Weds. Sounds confusing....its not. At first you monitor these accounts very closely, then, just like learning to ride a two wheeler bike, when you are comfortable that the sky isn’t going to fall, go for it. I absolutely promise that a year from now you will email Rick and myself and thank us and wonder why you didn’t do that before. Look at John of Royal Gardens. He’ll be the first to tell you he didn’t believe me and had huge doubts whether his clients would allow this. 3 months later he was thrilled. Just ask him. Oh yes, one thing more, you will probably have to get rid of the Spaths and if there is a blooming program make arrangements for that.

Remember, there is absolutely nothing else you will ever do that will put more $$ on your bottom line both in labor, vehicle, and replacement savings.

Hope to see a lot of you at TPIE, in Dallas at the Holiday Seminar I’m doing for PIA, and at the Chesapeake Green Conference, Feb. 6th and 7th, Weds and Thurs. I’ll be presenting 3 modules, Pricing Goods and Services, Leasing Goods and Holiday tidbits, and How to get in step with the Green Movement. To find out more about Chesapeake, log on www.mnlaonline.org.

When an account comes up for bid and the RFP states it is for a "weekly service" we bid on that.But if it doesn’t state a "weekly service" we always ask.I have yet to come across an RFP for anything but weekly.In my opinion if you have aquired a job that you or others and have been servicing weekly and then switch to a 10 day rotation without the consent of the client then you have short-changed him.If my yard man who comes every Friday decided on his own that the grass would be OK if he only came every ten days I assure you I would be renegotiating our monthly bill.

Thanks, Barb. I have no trepidation about using Spaths, though...we subirrigate most of them, and we have found that top-watered Spaths have more problems, even on weekly routes, than any other plant, due mainly to techs’ panicky propensity for overwatering them. The occasional droopy, wilty, too-dry Spath will invariably recover in a day or so with maybe a couple of yellow leaves, but the root-rot-prone, weekly-watered Spath is much more of a recurring problem and doesn’t EVER recover.

What about those client-generated contracts that are already signed, sealed and delivered? These are mainly large commercial realty management companies or facilities management contractors who create their own contract boilerplate and expect us to sign off on it...they might be expected to raise an eyebrow if we suddenly asked to change the service frequency from "weekly" to "as needed", don’t you think?

Clem

For every situation there are always exceptions. I can’t tell you that every client situation is the perfect target for this but with weekly, biweekly and 10 days service modules available, you have a lot of choice. Plus, what if you provide a "mini" biweekly or 10 service and send techs every week only fewer techs ’cause they are pulling yellow throughout but only watering every other floor. You are still fulfilling the written contract but reaping some savings. Plus, I had clients that had stipulations that said "every week", but when I showed them that we could keep their costs from going up next year plus their energy savings and we promised that if they were unhappy after we put it in place for 2 months we’d go back to the old way, we got a lot who said, "OK, let’s try it". C’mon Folks, get creative. Figure out ways to please yourself and the client.

Couple of other tips with this modified or extended service function. First, I forgot to tell you that on the second two weeks of the Plan, the Accounts switch days of the week so you have two calendars. The first for the first two weeks and then one for the following two weeks. Then you just alternate back and forth. Also, one of the skills that needs to be cultivated is to teach techs to "anticipate". A leaf that is one fifth yellow is not going to green up within the next two weeks. It’s just going to get more yellow. At the one fifth yellow stage it is not a huge eyesore. Two weeks later, it is. Teach techs to see and project and pull or trim earlier rather than later. See? Plan ahead, think ahead. And Clem, I suggest you try it on a few accounts. Make sure you get a tech who is adventurous and let us know YOUR results. Also, to prove the point keep track of time, replacements etc.

Lastly, how’s Holiday going for Everyone?? What increases are you seeing? Are clients cutting back or is it full throttle ahead? Barb

For every situation there is an exception. I can’t tell you that every client is the perfect target for this but with weekly, biweekly and 10 days service modules, you have a lot of choice. Plus, what if you provide a "mini" biweekly or 10 service and send techs every week only fewer techs ’cause they are pulling yellow throughout but only watering every other floor. C’mon Folks, get creative. Please yourself and the client.

Couple of other tips with this modified or extended service function. First, I forgot to tell you that on the next two weeks of the Plan, the Accounts switch days of the week so you have two calendars. The first for the first two weeks and then the following two weeks, flip it. Also, one of the skills that needs to be cultivated is to teach techs to "anticipate". A leaf that is one fifth yellow is not going to green up within the next weeks. Teach techs to see and project and pull or trim earlier rather than later.

How’s Holiday going for Everyone?? What increases are you seeing? Are clients cutting back or is it full throttle ahead? Barb

When we made this change to 10 day maintenance (almost all accounts except residences that already paid a premium) we had only one account (a major corporation) complain, and that was with several hundred accounts. With that one corporation we told them to let us try the 10 day service for two months and if they noticed ANY change in how their plants looked we would certainly go back to weekly service. They never complained and we never had to go back to weekly service with them. (We were dealing with a "Purchasing Agent", and that is just how they think....less visits = less money.)

It succeeded because the way we sold it to clients. They were paying for insurance and a good looking healthy plant, NOT on how many hours we were spending at their site. We also sold it on the fact that we were sub-irrigating their plants, that their plants would look better in the long run. We were investing in "high tech" methods of keeping their plants healthy and we were not charging them any additional fees for this service. Sort of like what City Gardens in Boston did back in the 1980’s. They charged accounts a premium for not using any pesticides, claiming their "high tech" methods would do the same thing. People gladly paid a premium.

Jerry:
Your comparison to your gardener is not apples to apples. Your grass grows and needs trimming. If your gardener could slow the growing of the grass down and develop a method of keeping all of your leaves removed and all of your plants watered and everything looked exactly the same or better in your yard with his 10 day service than it did with his weekly service you could not complain.

Rick

OK, no need to sell "me" on less frequent service as we already do most of our commercial accounts on a bi-weekly interval.

My question to the experts is:

If we’re increasing our service interval and keeping our price the same as it was AND the plants look just as great (or better) than they did with weekly service, why even offer the 10 day cycle to clients we’re converting from weekly?

Wouldn’t it make more sense for those converting existing weeklies to go all the way to bi-weekly and thus realize even more yeild?

Client still has great looking plants, ’scaper increases margins even more and one less visit means even less of a negative impact on the environment.

Steve

For our company 10 day has worked best. Less subirrigation and as I
mentioned in a previous post, it helps deal with holiday weeks in the best
possible way. Yes, we have members on our team who work 4 days per week,
but usually their fifth day is spent taking care of their children or attending
school, NOT waiting to be of service to our company. Plus, when someone is
out sick or needs a personal day off, you just "bump" to the next day without
creating an upheavel in your entire schedule. I am not dictating what is best
for everyone in every circumstance. There are clients that need more service
and handholding.
When I originally got started in this industry, I worked for a firm that did three
week service intervals ~ sub irrigation was new then; I personally thought it
was too long between visits. I have tried 2 week, and for the same reasons I
outlined 10 day as being best, went with that. Stated earlier, we still have
weekly accounts for high profile, fussy clients but there is a reason for it.

Here’s an example and yes, the lawn service is differerent from plant service
(by the way our exterior routes are mostly weekly, different crew)

We get water delivered by a reputable firm. Delicious, pure spring water
because we don’t like the taste of tap and I got everyone metal bottles so they
wouldn’t have to buy bottled water in the field. It’s better for coffee and tea
but I digress. I have no idea when exactly our water is delivered. The friendly
guy seems to show up when we have a 5 gallon or so left. It does not appear
to be on the same day of the week each visit. If we run out, as we did a
couple times in the warmer weather when everyone was putting it away, we
simply call the company and they bring more ahead of their scheduled time.
Whoever is working in the warehouse or office always exchanges pleasantries
and we even gave him an orchid to take home to his plant loving wife. But in
no way do I want our company setting our watches by his visits and calling
the water company to scream: "where is he, oh where is he it is 10:15 on
Tuesday where is he" (especially when we have 3 full 5 gallon bottles. I, and
most of my clients are busy and I prefer our team members focus on their
jobs, not that of the vendors.
And yes, I know bottled water is different than plants, but hope this example
serves.

Barb, we finished Holiday on Friday. Loooong 3 weeks and the time leading
up to it. Most profitable and successful year to date, and everyone connected
with it worked really hard, on top of their normal duties. Having a much
needed day off at home, so hope I don’t get a Royal scolding from John for
my somewhat lenghty postings.

Cheers, all!

Matthew

For our company 10 day has worked best. Less subirrigation and as I
mentioned in a previous post, it helps deal with holiday weeks in the best
possible way. Yes, we have members on our team who work 4 days per week,
but usually their fifth day is spent taking care of their children or attending
school, NOT waiting to be of service to our company. Plus, when someone is
out sick or needs a personal day off, you just "bump" to the next day without
creating an upheavel in your entire schedule. I am not dictating what is best
for everyone in every circumstance. There are clients that need more service
and handholding.
When I originally got started in this industry, I worked for a firm that did three
week service intervals ~ sub irrigation was new then; I personally thought it
was too long between visits. I have tried 2 week, and for the same reasons I
outlined 10 day as being best, went with that. Stated earlier, we still have
weekly accounts for high profile, fussy clients but there is a reason for it.

Here’s an example and yes, the lawn service is differerent from plant service
(by the way our exterior routes are mostly weekly, different crew)

We get water delivered by a reputable firm. Delicious, pure spring water
because we don’t like the taste of tap and I got everyone metal bottles so they
wouldn’t have to buy bottled water in the field. It’s better for coffee and tea
but I digress. I have no idea when exactly our water is delivered. The friendly
guy seems to show up when we have a 5 gallon or so left. It does not appear
to be on the same day of the week each visit. If we run out, as we did a
couple times in the warmer weather when everyone was putting it away, we
simply call the company and they bring more ahead of their scheduled time.
Whoever is working in the warehouse or office always exchanges pleasantries
and we even gave him an orchid to take home to his plant loving wife. But in
no way do I want our company setting our watches by his visits and calling
the water company to scream: "where is he, oh where is he it is 10:15 on
Tuesday where is he" (especially when we have 3 full 5 gallon bottles. I, and
most of my clients are busy and I prefer our team members focus on their
jobs, not that of the vendors.
And yes, I know bottled water is different than plants, but hope this example
serves.

Barb, we finished Holiday on Friday. Loooong 3 weeks and the time leading
up to it. Most profitable and successful year to date, and everyone connected
with it worked really hard, on top of their normal duties. Having a much
needed day off at home, so hope I don’t get a Royal scolding from John for
my somewhat lenghty postings.

Cheers, all!

Matthew

ooops on the double posting

LOL

To all the above proponents of less than weekly service.....Do you not have any intelligent competitors in your market? Well, I hope they are not reading this. Do you really think that if you have an account that has been on a weekly service and you change to a 10 day service without lowering the price that a smart competitor won’t come in and quote the job for the "actual" visits and quote it for less as well? What you are doing works only if your compeitors are not going after your business.And even if you are doing a 10 day with great success its not a far reach for your competitor to convince your client that he can do it every two weeks for even less than the 10 day price.For us one of the first questions I hear from a prospect is "how often do you come out to service ?" I wonder why they are asking that??? HMMMM Now which of my competitors is doing a biweekly??? HMMMMM

Bottom line is [just one mans opinion]the less you make yourself necessary the less necessary you will become.

"We were investing in "high tech" methods of keeping their plants healthy and we were not charging them any additional fees for this service.".

Not ’additional" but the cost to subirrigate was included in the intial bid or definately annualised at cost so if a high tech device could replace a tech for that week why should I pay "as if" I had a tech there that week??
I’ll pay the intial cost for the sub-irrigation if it means I pay less monthly, not "as if" a tech were there this week.
CWI’s doing their jobs are much less costly (per month) than a human, correct?

I’ve rarely had anyone ask how often we come .... I can count those on one hand.

I have however had the competition come in .... lower bid, weekly service. I have not lost one.

I’ve also went into a company who had a weekly service. I bid, apples to apples EXCEPT that we were only going to be servicing every other week. My prices were over TWICE what their current company was charging. Initially they said no ....... I kept after them and changed NOTHING in my bid ........ they have been my client for four years and they are very happy.

Same situation in a large hotel that had weekly service. My prices were 30% higher and we were bidding apples to apples except that we were only going to service them every other week. They didn’t like the price .... so we re-worked the proposal ... not to reduce the PRICE, but to reduce the number of plants to GET to his current price. Competitors have been in there and been shown the door.

So as far as competitors bidding weekly ...... bring it. Pretty much anything that I have ever lost on price and WANTED to keep ...... I’ve gotten back within a year. I spend ZERO time worrying about the competition. We will never go back to weekly service.

OK, seems as though I helped opened a can-o-worms here. Thanks to Barb for showing me the light on this 10-day thing. Like I’ve said before, I LOVE IT! With that being said, let me address a few things.

First, as far as anyone’s worries about their client’s concerns of not seeing you, your frequency of visits, yadda yadda yadda, if you aren’t doing good PR it’s not going to matter if you go weekly, 10 days, bi-weekly. You can have the best looking plants in town, but if your PR sucks or your tech’s PR sucks, they will complain. I’m a chatty fella, and I’ll bet at least 1/4 of my time each day is spent chatting it up with the personell at various maintenance stops. I’m convinced that if you can make the client feel that you are genuinely interested in them personally, they are going to be less likely to complain about anything. I didn’t say never, I said LESS likely.

Second, show me in ANY indoor plant book where it says that you should water all your plants every week, the same day of the week. It doesn’t! And if anyone can prove me otherwise, show me and I’ll stand corrected. Each plant, as we know (or should know) has differing water requirements. Most instructions concerning watering found in books say "keep evenly moist", "allow to dry somewhat", etc. They never state "water it once a week", expressly for the reason that EVERY SINGLE PLANT has a different environment or micro-climate that it lives in (even pothos to pothos it’s different) and therefor cannot be treated the same or watered at the same time. I used to be going weekly, and I would find some plants still sufficently wet from the previous week’s watering, so I either gave it VERY LITTLE or nothing at all, and by the time I showed up the next week it was wilting badly. The 10-day schedule has fixed that for me. The plants are all needing some water by the time I show up, and there is no danger of me overwatering. REMEMBER PEOPLE, plants take in oxygen through their roots, and if they are waterlogged, the oxygen cannot penetrate the soil and the roots will stop working and then start rotting (but we all know that). Letting the plants get a little dry between waterings makes for oxygenated soil, and 10 days is just the right amount of time before they start wilting.

Third, Jerry’s comments about competetors coming in and stealing business because of the number of visits you make is just retarded. EVERY business is out there hoping to "steal" business from their competetor. BUT, all their efforts are not going to amount to a hill of beans if you are providing both a top-notch service and SPECTACULAR PR to boot. If they think, in the very slightest, that you don’t care, then they will go with somebody else, even if the bid is higher than yours. I’m so confident in how my clients view my company (and it’s just me, myself and I running the show) that I’m not the least bit affraid of the largest company in my area trying to "steal" my business, because I KNOW my clients are happy. I sell a service, a GREAT service, and if you are worried about the competition, then you should re-evaluate how you are doing things.

Lastly, the only reason why a client/potential client asks "how often to you come to service the plants?" is because they have been conditioned over the years to think that weekly maintenance is necessary. It’s time to re-educate the public. Tell them why, in most cases, it’s not necessary to water the plants the same day every week, 52 weeks a year. If you do it in a tactful and honest manner, then they will buy into it, because, after all, you are the professional plant person.

On that note, I would like to add that I have put my 10-day schedule on an Excel spreadsheet, so if anyone wants to see a 10-day schedule fleshed out on paper, just e-mail me and I’ll send you a copy.

John

Wow, if paul only knew the can or worms he was openingwhen he posted this thread!

Jerry we only have one "intelligent competitor" and she operates just like we do ;) Some weekly, some bi-weekly.

Seriously though, I think there are two different issues going on here:

1) Transitioning existing clients that are serviced weekly to something less frequent... is dicey and has to handled on a one to one basis.

2) Quoting/selling new customers is much less dicey as the "rules" of the game are set up-front and everyone agrees to them.

When I get the "how often will you visit question" (and I honestly don’t get asked that very often) I usually reply "as often as necessary within your budget" It’s then up to me to provide them with options that meet their needs, and this applies to service frequency AND leasing vs. purchasing their plants and containers with a service program.

I’m assuming from your posts that you’re servicing all your accounts weekly and this is fine as long as you’re happy with the return and your clients are happy with their price.

Really, it’s all about giving the Client what they want and realizing the profit margin that you desire.

John made an excellent point about "connecting" with the client. Regardless of how often the company is represented at the account, if the company doesn’t "connect" with someone, develop/nurture the relationship then one is vulnerable to some other company coming in and soliciting the business. If one is "connected" that solicitation is most often useless.

As an aside, we just began servicing a very hip boutique hotel here recently. We quoted on weekly service as this is one of those properties that just has to be perfect 24/7/365. The GM wanted us to put a clause in the contract stating EXACTLY how much time we would spen on the account weekly. NEVER been asked to put THAT in a contract before, but let’s see what we can do, so I explained the "workings" of our business to her... "It’s not just about the onsite time, there are many offsite costs associated with servicing your account, there’s the guarantee factor, some weeks plants will need more water than others, some weeks we’’l be replenishing topdressings, others, we’ll be installing FREE replacements and oso on. I can put a *range* of service time in your contract, but I can’t say we’ll be onsite for 90 minutes a week". If your service is completed in 45 minutes we’ll leave and if we need to be there for two or three hours, we’ll stay.

"That sounds reasonable, she said", placed a clause in the contract that stated "onsite service time will be a minimum of 45 minutes to as long as it takes at each scheduled service visit" and she was happy with that. Of course our price is calculated based upon the maximum estimated service time, so we’re happy with that too.

Have a great rest of the week.

Steve

John, some pretty strong words.Do you mind me asking how long have you been in this business and how large your company is? Sounds from your post you still do your own tech work. How many people work for you? I would pause before I called someones ideas "retarded".Perhaps you would like to compare the success of your ideas to mine for the last 35 years.No? My father had a saying, "don’t let your alligator mouth overload your puppy dog butt".

All the arguments about weekly, biweekly, 10-day (actually 10-/11-day, right?) and all that jazz aside, this thread has accomplished something remarkable if we all just stand back and look at it:

We now know why the standards of professionalism in our little industry need major upgrading.

I say this because each post shows a vastly different approach to the BUSINESS OF INTERIORSCAPING, as opposed to the interiorscaping trade (i.e., the mechanics of interiorscaping). Also, several different and differing philosophies of running a business are on display if you read between the lines.

What I think is most important about what we discuss here is that each company is different BECAUSE we are a small, entrepreneurial industry without a long history of accepted business models (just look at how many of the original interiorscape firms either folded or were gobbled up by competitors over the years).

I think it’s time to WAKE UP, folks. We need a continuing dialog about HOW to run a business, because most of us have had little or no formal business schooling, but we’re all trying our damnedest to act like businesspeople on a daily basis. If our common experiences teach us anything, it’s that we all need to step up and make a concerted effort at supporting each other in our efforts to become more professional and successful at what we’re doing. It’s ignorance and complacency that drag down the level of our industry by undermining the perceived value of what we do and commoditizing our services instead of adding value to what we work so hard at.

Clem

Well said Clem. Your comment, "It’s ignorance and complacency that drag down the level of our industry", is exactly why I called Barb in the first place. I wanted to break out of the protective bubble that hangs over Utah and do things the way others are SUCCESSFULLY doing them. Here, most of the companies are run by people that used to work for the "big dog" company, and they all have the same bad habbits and bidding concepts that they learned from their employer years previous. I wanted to be different. I wanted to take interiorscaping in a different direction with my humble little company, the best I could. Is anyone using sub-irrigation here in Utah? I don’t see it. Am I? Not yet. Is anyone else implimenting a different watering schedule concept here other than weekly? I don’t see it. So, I’m trying to change that practice here in my area because I believe in what I’m doing so strongly.

I agree that we need to "step up and make a concerted effort at supporting each other in our efforts to become more professional and successful at what we’re doing". It’s about time. I want to learn from the long-timers. (yes, Steve, I still do all my tech work and have only been in the business for 13 years, but so what! I’m trying to progress and grow in a different direction than everybody else in my neck of the woods. But, I still think your concern about the competition trying to steal business based on whether you are on a 10-day schedule or not is retarded. Sorry. They are going to try and find some way to steal it, regardless.)

I think we all need to be forward thinkers and not be so hard nosed to try something new. If it works, GREAT! If it doesn’t, try something else. Do you know how many times Edison failed with the lightbulb before he got one that worked? Add to that the many DIFFERENT types of lightbulbs there are today. Immagine how boring our world would look if nobody tried something new to improve on Edison’s invention.

The same goes for our industry. If so many people are enjoying success from a new 10-day schedule concept, then why not try it. I’m currently doing 10-days for most of my clients and weekly for a very few. I never said that it was the only way to do it. Each way has it’s pros and cons. It’s just that the 10-day schedule has WAY too many pros for me to ignore.

If we are going to succeed as an industry in the U.S., we need to be pushing the envelope. Let’s take a lesson from our friends across the seas in Europe and be forward thinkers. Lets try new concepts and products (that we have developed here in the USA) on our clients! Lets be the EXPORTERS of GREAT ideas for our industry. Frankly, I’m getting tired of Jeff telling us about his awesome trips "across the pond" and seeing new concepts. It’s not the trips I’m tire of hearing about, it’s the plethora of new ideas that he comes back with. Do the Europeans think the same of us when they come over here to Cal-Scape or other conventions? Think about it. One of our industry’s hottest decorative containers is IMPORTED FROM GERMANY! What new innovations or concepts are WE exporting? I’d rather hear from Jeff about the buzz the United States is creating in Europe with OUR new concepts and innovations.

Let’s work together! WE CAN DO IT!!!

Pssst John .............. that was Jerry. Steve’s on your side.

OOPS! Sorry Steve! :-)

LOL... No problem man!

Now you and Jerry iss and make up ;)

Seeya later. Gotta go to work.

Hmmmm. Interesting turn of events. Now we’re talking about the Business of Interiorscaping. ’Bout time.

Here’s my humble take on it. As an interiorscaper, inventor/vendor, and someone who has been in every Association, Program Planning Committee and Networking Group in the Industry, I’ve gotten to know a lot of you. Here’s what I’ve found. We/you are the most inventive, creative, stubborn, entrepenurial lot of business owners around. You/we are both smart and not so smart. I marvel at how you solve "challenges", yet, often get so locked in to the "that’s the way we’ve always done it" mode. I marvel at our risk taking skills and yet, our sometimes inability to try something new and to move forward.

Each company is different. Often vastly so. The important stuff to a company with 5 employees is different from one with 25 and one that is just you. Same goes for one in a large city vs one in a tourist area. Your client base is different, your locale is different, and your needs are different. To take advice on how to get rid of mealy bug is one thing, to take advice on how to run your business, the lifeblood of your family is another. The first? No problem. The second? Be very, very cautious. Look at the ideas, seriously consider if they would work for your company and test or discard.

When I consult for a company, I always ask a lot of questions. Anyone that has ever worked with me will remember our initial "interview". All the questions and probbing I did. How large are they, where are they, their typical client base, what is the business "mix", and so on. A company that does Holiday is different from one who does not. A company that uses a lot of subirrigation is different from one who does not. A company that does a lot of residential and exterior Containerized, well you get the idea. Then, once I get a ton of information, THEN I can offer strategies for exploration or solutions for problem situations. By the way, Pricing is still the number one pitfall for most. There are lots of factors affecting this. Some "guesstimate" too little time per visit, others use a dollar per hour that is too low and some of you are petrified of your competitors or not really firm in your belief that people/companies will actually pay someone to "water plants". Add to all this the fact that 99% of us started out with a thousand bucks and a van, and are still under capitalized and you see the problems. One of my friends/business gurus, Curt Conrad, always asks me why it is so hard to get people in this industry to understand that sometimes you need to spend $$ to make or save $$$$$$$$$. In other words, invest X to get Triple X. It’s a puzzle.

So, my unasked for advice? Get all the recipes for How to Kill Gnats, and Resources for Subirrigated Water Barrels from this site, but proceed very cautiously when getting advice about Business stuff. Take the answers as ideas, suggestions and examples, but do not inscribe them on your forehead as gospel. This is YOUR business, your livelihood. It is your "baby". Free advice is fine, just keep who is offering it in perspective. Their size, their experience and so on. Everyone on the site is well meaning and truly believes in what they are saying and wants to be of help. But, over the years I’ve seen some right stuff, some wrong stuff,some REALLY wrong stuff, and some I just don’t know about. Be careful.

Its almost the end of ’07. We’re headed into a New Year. Make it a Resolution to develop a list of areas you need to research and develop for your business not just for ’08 but for all the years to come. And search out the Resources to get that information be it by web, by seminar, or by someone else.

And, oh yes, get that recipe for getting rid of gnats, too.

John, for those with friends or family with handicaps of any nature could you choose your words with a little more compasson for those folks?

Barb......well stated as usual.

This 10 or even two week idea isn’t knew.We tried it 30 years ago with less than a warm reception by our clients.

I dont see anything wrong with the idea from a horticulture point of view other than an occasional problem with yellow leaves etc.But they are two "chinks" in this concept that are problems.

First, if you switch from a weekly to a 10 day and tell you customer there is no discount then it opens the door for an aggressive competitor like me to point out to the client that I will service their account weekly...give them more attention for the same price as a 10 day.Now all else being equal who do you think will get the job? The other option you have is to reduce your price. hmmmm not the direction I want my revenue to go.

Second, if your customer is happy with your ten day and I [the aggressive competitor] come in and say I can do it every two weeks for 30% less than your price. How? Beause you are still charging for a weekly price.

Now if you are selling a new job and give the customer a choice of weekly srvice at $100 or 10 service at $100 which will they choose?

Unless you are willing to face the fact that there is a labor "COST" associated each visit then you are just fooling yourself thinking you will be able to cut visits down and price the same without either your customer wising up or your competition grinding you down in time.

I haven’t survived all the wars for all these years without being able to find the "chink" in my compeitors armor.And John,I don’t care if you are God’s gift to plant service and the best damn smoosier in the world,if you don’t care what your competion is doing and how they are doing it you are setting yourself up for a fall.

Now,having said that I wish I could put all my accounts on a 10 day and charge the same as weekly.But listen to what Barb says.Not all markets are the same and not all client bases are the same.I grew my business for years taking business away from competitors who thought they could short change or overcharge their clients and no one would be the wiser.They were wrong and if you were in my market I would be taking your business too.Clients aren’t stupid and unless your competitors are they will have you in their sights and have the ammo to lock and load.

Remember, there is nothing wrong with the 10 concept in principal and it could even be a selling tool for you with certain prospects. But you need to price it like a ten day or your competion will.

Last but not least, John...grow up with the rude comments about people with handicaps.I am ,as I’m sure others are, personally insulted by your choice of words.You may attack me in almost any way you choose but there is no excuse to demean and belittle others like that.I hope that an appology to those others is forthcoming.

Well said Barb and very true.

At the risk of engaging in shameless self-promotion, I will have some of those magical "recipes" for getting rid of (or at least preventing) fungus gnats in the interiorscape when I give a short talk on same at the 2008 TPIE interiorscape program on Friday, January 18, 2008.

I’m looking forward to meeting/seeing all of my virtual buddies there. It will be nice to put faces to the names.

Clem

OMG people! You are SERIOUSLY taking the RETARDED comment WAY the wrong way if you are getting offended and thinking I’m belittling handicapped people. That makes me laugh out loud! It’s a figure of speach used by EVERYONE! WHATEVER!

Let me define my RETARDED comment in another way that would make more sense. According to the American Heritage Dictionary:
v. re·tard·ed, re·tard·ing, re·tards

v. tr.
To cause to move or proceed slowly; delay or impede.

v. intr.
To be delayed.

n.
A slowing down or hindering of progress; a delay.
Music A slackening of tempo.

(ex. Not being willing to try a new, more effective, concept for fear the competition will steal their business is RETARDED.) ’Nuf said!

Just because "everyone" uses a figure of speech doesn’t make it less hurtful. When I was a kid back in the 70’s, the boys would use terms like "gay" and "faggot" as insults. Before that, there was the "n" word.

This is a point that I have been very adamant about with my teenager, and she doesn’t use the term "retarded" as slang anymore, even though most of her peers do.

It is best to err on the side of caution to avoid even the appearance of offending. There are plenty of other words one could substitute, such as "foolish", "shortsighted", and so on. Dig out your thesaurus.

Point taken.

Sheila,

Not sure that ‘shortsighted’ is a good substitute either – speaking as someone who is both literally myopic and also regards himself as a forward thinker!

Language is fascinating (and not really the point of this thread) and it is interesting to see that you Americans feel that ’handicap’ and ’handicapped’ are acceptable words (See Jerry’s comments) whereas over here in the UK that would be frowned upon and ’disability’ and ’person with a disablity’ (or even ’disabled’) would be preferred.

We really are, as Churchill put it, two peoples divided by a common language.

There are plenty of good ways of expressing profound disagreement with legitimate (even if wrong) arguments without recourse to insults, no matter how mild. (And by the way, I’m not offended by the ’shortsighted’ comment, but I thought is was a good illustration about how far things can go!)

Kenneth,

On this side of the pond, the word "handicapped" can also get you into hot water...many advocates for this group hate that term as well, fabricating awkward euphemisms such as "differently-abled" and "handi-capable" as acceptable substitutes.

Most of us are more reasonable about the use of language, though. Words are just a shorthand for expressing more complex concepts, and are a convenience, not a slap at any person or group. The PERCEPTION of words will be in the ear of the beholder, and if someone chooses to take offense at a well-intended comment, that is too bad and should be considered "their problem", not mine. We cannot control the feelings of others to the extent that we need to bastardize the language to be politically correct. It’s what’s in the speaker’s mind and heart that matters, and there will always be people who will be offended by ANY form of descriptive adjective that is spoken or written about THEM. Life’s too short to worry about it.

Clem

Clem,
Are you really comparing the phrase I used "people with handicaps" and the term "retarded" as equally offensive?
And your suggestion that the use of the word "retarded" is acceptable because it is "shorthand for expressing more complex concepts,and are a convenience"is truly a reach that not even you can make.
I would think that an educated person such as yourself would not think it to "bastardize the language" to avoid the use of offensive language.I would have to believe your vocabulary has a wider range than that.
I think that in your stretch to disagree with me your defense of the term "retarded" is weak.

A very good read for Clem, John and Kenneth

This is from the area of your pond isn’t it Clem?

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/03/25/lets_not_use_words_that_wound/?rss_id=Boston+Globe+--+City%2FRegion+News

Jerry,

You misread my remarks...I was not referring to the term "retarded", but was specifically addressing by name Kenneth’s objection to the word "handicapped" as being unacceptable in British society today, while it is generally considered acceptable by most Americans.

So the word "handicapped" is commonly used to denote someone with some sort of physical, mental or emotional limitation that prevents or hinders them from engaging in all of the activities that other folks routinely can without special means. For example, I couldn’t hire a technician who is wheelchair-bound to service second-floor offices above retail shops in an older downtown commercial area where the buildings never had elevators installed, because that person’s HANDICAP (the inability to climb stairs) would make it impossible for them to service those particular accounts. The same person could service other accounts that are handicap-accessible (on ground level or with elevator or ramp access), and so their handicap is not total, but it does impede them from the full range of work activities that the job requires under the former set of circumstances.

It’s obvious that the single, eight-letter word "handicap" pretty cogently communicates the concept of various types of limitations without going into a longwinded oration about what it means to be "handicapped". It’s not a pejorative, just a descriptive adjective that instantly describes a concept to most people. No offense intended.

Clem

Hey, Jerry, I read that article you linked to, and I agree that there are lots of instances when verbiage is antiquated and needs updating. Surprising, then, isn’t it, that the People’s Republic of Massachusetts, bailiwick of that champion of political correctness, the Cape Cod Orca himself, still has a "Department of Mental Retardation" in the year 2007?

The problem with P. C. striking down words is that it can give one small group power over that most potent of civilization’s hallmarks: our language. Considering that the English language is under assault from many corners of our own society at this point in history, to allow special interest groups the right to pick and choose what words are acceptable to use by the rest of us is a very sick concept. Each person has the free will and the constitutional right to choose his or her words as he or she sees fit, and to deal with any consequences of their own poor choices. We don’t need self-styled cultural police to tell us how to do that.

Clem

So, next time I go golfing, I’m going to lower my handicap...sorry, my disability,...because I’ve been practicing.

Now to have to change a sports term just to be P.C. IS retarded! PLUS, when it comes to being P.C. there is NO WAY IN HELL the sports world is going to change their terminology.

Good crap folks. Let’s not show our age by getting upset over little things (like use of words, the weather, and new concepts).

Now that I’ve had my say, I think I’ll go out back and suck on a fag. (That was for Kenneth. He knows what I mean.)

Oh my! Where are opinions going? I’m willing to sponsor a "one arm tied behind your back" battle royal match at TPIE between all people who strayed from the original post.
The winner will receive one buck from my pocket and the title of deviator of 2007. I won’t be at TPIE for the first time in many years, so post the video on myspace and I’ll send the buck and a framed deviator certificate to the winner. Good luck to all.

I’ll sponsor a butt kickin contest ...... same rules except a leg, not an arm tied up.

My daughter’s in a stage where she’s dating an idiot ...... is the word Moron off the table too ?

You people are too much. I’m so tired of the political correct BS. Sorry, but like Clem says ... freedom of speech, like it or not.

Like I told my kids when they would come cryin to me over a sibling calling them a name - "Well, ARE you ? Then why are you worryin about it?"

If I get a vote I say we nix the "n" word first. I haven’t seen many handicapped people "pop a cap" over the word retarded ....... but the "n" word I have. I hope I have not offended any caps. ;)

Lighten up people. And before you respond rudely to me ... I worked as a STRICLTY VOLUNTEER board member and physical therapist for a Therapeutic Horse Back Riding Center ..... for 13 years. I took that organization from having to charge for therapy and them being in debt, to having paid off their debt and had 3 times that amount IN the bank in less than one year ...... and we were able to GIVE a years worth of therapy to 25 kids. I’m pretty sure I’m qualified here. I can honestly say, that unless you were talking directly to or about one of my students, they or their parents would not have had a problem with the word. Then again that article did say the West Coast uses it a lot, and it’s true.

The bottom line here is that there IS freedom of speech and I’ve got more to worry about than who’s "feelings" I hurt every time I open my mouth. I am who I am, like it or not I really don’t give a rat’s butt. Would it be appropriate if every time I’m asked to push "one for English" IN MY OWN COUNTRY that I kick down a ridiculous three day fit because my "feelings" got hurt ? Didn’t think so.

It’s time to let this one die people. Hopefully that did not offend any dead people.

Debbie

OK Folks....It’s time to begin a NEW thread. Enough said, plus the topic is no longer true to the subject. This one is closed.
Rick

Yay! New thread!!

Hello All,
My wife and I are planning on starting up an interiorscaping business in the Salt Lake Valley. We stumbled across interiorscape.com and thought someone here could give us some direction/information. House plants are a hobby of ours, but beyond a summer job at a local Garden Center, and a few years caring for the plants we have (philodendrons, stawberry begonias, an assortment of ferns, wandering jews, african violets, african masks, sherfelas, azaelas, peace lilys, and some others) we have little knowledge or experience. Could you please direct us to any helpful references (literature, other websites) that may help us to make this idea a reality.
Thanks a bunch,
Justin Walker

Never underestimate the power of the Google or Yahoo search engines when looking for info on the web. Besides this wonderful site onto which you have stumbled, there are many others, particularly university sites, that contain a wealth of horticultural info that will be of value to you as beginners.

As for interiorscape BUSINESS knowledge, that’s another story. You will want to attend one or more of the big industry conferences, like TPIE in Florida or CalScape out west, or the interiorscape portion of the Ohio Florists’ Association show in the midwest. There are sales and marketing sessions, hort sessions, design sessions, and networking opportunities with fellow ’scapers and industry suppliers there that will accelerate your "instant industry education" process greatly.

Some industry pros, such as Barb Helfman and Kathy Fediw, have consulting businesses that provide industry-specific training materials, seminars and webinars for the continuing education of interiorscapers. I’m sure that a search of this site will turn up contact info for their websites.

There are even courses given at some colleges and vocational schools around the country, but they can be difficult to track down. I believe that Penn State University was in the process of creating an interior landscaping program, and Michigan State has some interiorscaping courses if I’m not mistaken, but call your local colleges and vo-tech schools to find out what’s in your area.

And you can come on here and ask questions anytime, for free, so avail yourself of this community as part of your education.

Clem

Thanks for the helpful advice Clem. Utah State University has, what looks to be a great program.

Justin

Justin,

I forgot to mention that the land-grant universities (usually the ones with the name of the state followed by "State University"...except for Rutgers, of course, which is special) often have the best horticulture programs in general and are likely to have interiorscape courses in particular (although there’s no doubt that a good general hort program that includes Greenhouse Management and related courses will give you all the background you will need on the technical side).

I’m glad you found something promising so close to home...welcome to the Green Biz!

Clem

I just heard a comedian last night, Carlos Mencia. He has a whole comedy bit on Chwecko’s (simple english translation - Retarded People), and he claims that he is absolutely LOVED in the handicapped community.

Some people need to calm themselves.

LOL! I love that we are still on this RETARDED thing a whole month later!!! LOL!

Help Please
i have over 300 wild hogs to get them off my hands!!!

i would like to where a process plant in Florida

to ship them to...

help don’t now what to with them..

aprox... every two months we can get this many.....

please send me a response by via e-mail

larry.sandberg@suddenlink.net
thank you very much...

Larry,

You’re a couple of weeks too late...they would have made for a great pig roast at TPIE in Ft. Lauderdale!

I wonder whether they might actually be "protected" by the EPA or Florida game regs, though.

I’m sure that you could get some publicity by offering to donate the meat to a homeless shelter...but then PETA would probably show up and make a mess of that, and you’d be stuck with 300 rotting hog carcasses and get cited by the Board of Health. Sometimes, you just can’t win.

Good luck with the project, though.

Clem

The petition

We, the undersigned condemn the Berkeley City Council’s treasonous attack on US Marine Recruiters stationed in their city. We ask that Congress cut off funds from any and all municipal entity within the confines of the city of Berkeley, California, until such time as the city council withdraws it’s action.

The City Council has voted to tell the Marines their downtown recruiting station is not welcome and “if recruiters choose to stay, they do so as uninvited and unwelcome guests.”

The measure passed last week by a vote of 8-1.

The council also voted to explore enforcing a city anti-discrimination law, focusing on the military’s “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy.

In a separate item, the council voted, also 8-1, to give the Marxist protest group Code Pink a parking space in front of the recruiting office once a week for six months and a free sound permit for protesting once a week.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/cutoffberkeleynow

If you wish to, please share with your friends or e-mail to your address books.

huh? I think the above post needs a different thread, possibly a different site...am I missing something?

Hi there, I have a lot of plant’s through out the hospital, in hallways and offices. So I need some information on why the ficus tree (Lanc Leaf) is dropping it’s leaves? It is first week of March and the leaves are green , helthy. I water once a week. The Ficus is 6 years old, stands 6’ tall and spand of 6’. The container is 3’. Light is Midum and it is right up near the window. Fret. once a mouth. Some Leaves , not all but very few, are yellow from the inner to outter of the leaf. It (leaf’s)were very dusty , clean off with "Leaf-Shine" . I water about a haft bucket , which is 1/2 galion of water. The Main trunk is twisted of two .

I would appreachated any info. about this problem.


Thank You Very Much For Any Help.


Thomas Leatherman From St. Louis Children’s Hospital

There could be many reasons.

Look into hiring a professional who will take that off your hands for you.

Debbie sums it up nicely...from Thomas’ description, there are possibly eight or ten different things that could be going on here that cannot be diagnosed over the internet. Bring in a local interiorscaper (Growing Green is a good first bet) to take a look at the soil, the plant’s roots and foliage, checking for pests, diseases, soil problems, drainage issues, etc.

Clem

Is this thread still active?

Which part of the thread? The interiorscaping part, the hog part or the treasonous Berkeley City Council/Marine recruiters part?

Clem