Considering the present poll it doesn’t look like there are too many small businesses represented here who are taking home $250,000.00 these days, or are looking forward to the day when they do.
Rick

Rick,

Ditto that. This is a slippery slope we are about to embark on by the look of things.

John

Where is this poll? I must have missed it.

They are referring to this page’s survey about Obama versus McCain. Obama’s plans including taxing Rich’s above described companies.

Much of this gets down to whether you believe in the Republican or Democratic philosophy of solving our country’s problems... business stimulation to push money back into the economy or government mandating that "contribution". I’m sure that I will be persecuted for this statement, but I think our current economic condition illustrates the effectiveness of the first method. It depends too much on corporate honesty and willingness to pay their fair share. Who ends up having to bail out those who get themselves into a jam? The average Joe. This takes a step towards a little more control. OK, blast me, as I am sure will happen.

Julie

It has been reported that while Obama’s plan would raise the top marginal rate for such earners from around 34% to around 39%, many Dems in Congress are advocating that it go as high as 50.4%. THAT, ladies and gents, isn’t "spreading the wealth", it would kill entrepreneurship in America.

Clem

I am given to understand that Obama plans to tax small businesses earning 250K and above. This sounds like a wedge to capitalize on class envy. All you owners out there who know you don’t make anything near 250K, I’ll bet your business generates 250K per year - that’s before you subtract your payroll expenditures, insurance, plant replacements, etc. Congress will pull him even more towards higher taxes and mandates and regulations. Don’t know about y’all, but I work harder than my employees.
That’s during the day. At night I’m at the computer putting proposals together & trying to find a way to cover payroll. I’m not going to work for nothing. When the taxes, regulations & mandates take away my profits, I’m going to start handing out pink slips. If I had any idea how my employees voted, I’d be tempted to begin with the people who created the situation with their vote!

Okay Julie,

First let me start, I am a registered republican. Second, since the age of 18, I have voted republican every time for the presidential position as I have always seen them as the better candidate. Third, I will not vote republican if I feel the Dem or any other party has a better candidate. My voting record for senate and House in the state and federal attest to that.

Now that you know my track record and you can say whatever it is that you want. This one issue that Rick has brought up of about 4 issues I strongly disagree with in terms of Obama. My sole reason against this issue is this.

1. Yes, I do have a little (underline the word little) bit better buying power over the interiorscaper working out of their house. I also have a lot more overhead then they do, so this further tax (or in my terms socialism and "Spreading the wealth" aka: communisim) will make me less competitive as well as either increase my overhead and decrease my profits (my company is a non-profit organization by the way.)

2. As I was the first to respond in this post about a slippery slope, I’d like to clarify. You give an inch, they’ll take a mile. My stance is the principle. If we as the american public give in at 250K as saying that that is rich (Comparison to other countries not counting)Whose to say in 2 years they change their policy to anyone making over $100K and then anyone making over $50K. Just look at what the state of Maryland is doing currently. It’s the whole concept of place a frog in boiling water and out he jumps, place him in room temperature and slowly turn the heat up, eventually cooking him (Never tried this, just a saying about boiled frog that I tend to believe - Clem, any feedback on this and I suggest you start a new thread or the cyber warriors will be out with their sabers)

I guess that is why I’m sticking with John McCain. No, I don’t believe 100% in him, but you know the saying ... lesser of the evils.

3. I vote Clem C. for president. Then and only then my friends, will every building in America contain plants and hire a professional interiorscape service.

Now Julie, about the current mess and you stating you want change. I see your point, I feel the pain too. I just don’t see how Obama will fix it.

After 35 years of hearing the same thing from every politician who ever ran for office saying they are going to "help" small businesses I have yet to see any sort of help from any of them. At least Obama says hes going to make it even harder for small business which seems to be the real truth anyway. Having said that I no longer have trust in Obama or MCain to have any impact on the direction of our country.I heard Obama say that it was OK to give a tax rebate to those who pay NO income tax "because" they pay other kinds of taxes. I asume that he means sales tax because most folks who own homes probably make enough to pay income tax and those who dont pay no property tax.So its sort of like more welfare to those who are already on welfare. Hell why work at all...this could be great.....no work.. no tax...just more money from those of you who do work hard. So please keep working hard so that some of the folks who dont will not have to seek work at all. WHAT A GREAT COUNTRY !.Ya think it can keep going that direction.......why not give it a go and see.....
wait lets just all stop working and hold out our hands and get $$ from all those evil corporations...thats the ticket.NO ONE works and let the corporations support us.But what if because they are already taxed more than ANY country but ONE in the entire world they decide to move and take their money with them......hold on NEWS FLASH.........they are already doing that.

WAKE UP FOLKS....the people who make money and the corporations are not our enemy but are our only hope of surviving.THE ENEMY has become our own incompetent government.top to bottom......I will vote against every single incumbent this year who has made a career [5 years or more} out of running our country into the ground.Its not a Democrat thing or a Republican thing...its a VOTER thing. Don;t let them stay around long enough to have enough sucking power to suck out all the life from our country. Make them accountable and you the served and not the other way around.

Thank You.

Just a point of clarification. The Obama plan that discusses $250,000 refers to personal family income or wages. It does not make reference to small businesses that make $250,000 profit much less gross $250,000 in a year.
Many of us might have family incomes of $250,000 if our spouses also work and make a nice income. But realistcally, due to the average size on an interiorscape business, I’d doubt any potential tax increase on $250,000 or up is going to hit us.
This is not intended as support for either candidate or their positions. We’re all intelligent adults and will vote as we wish.

Jerry & David,

I agree, but for the sake of argument, what would your response be to my paragraph # 2. ?????? And yes your business is not your personal, but like I said, you give an inch they take a mile. What is to stop them from saying "Oh well you are the resident agent for XYZ company and last year your firm did $250,000.01 so pay up."

Where will the line be drawn? They constantly have ways of stretching it to get more income so that they can increase taxes, which in turn increases spending. It’s a viscious cycle.

Maryland has what they call a flush tax. Basically it is a tax paid annually by every household that is not connected to city water or sewage. (This one really makes my blood boil) It is their way of getting in to those hands that wouldn’t ordinarily get a bill. This bill was passed I think 4 years ago. It is currently at $35.00, who is to say they can’t increase it to $75 next year and $145.00 the year after. I know I am speaking of pennies, but it adds up.

Jerry’s idea of voting out all incumbents has merit. After all, it was not the intent of the Founders to create an oligarchy, or ruling class, of professional politicians and bureaucrats who derive their livelihoods (and FORTUNES) from siphoning off the taxpayers’ hard-earned dollars year after year...the concept was that one would serve a term and go home and back to one’s job, not make a career of "public service".

A local radio talk show host here in NJ calls this tactic "G.R.I.P." (Get Rid of Incumbent Politicians)...vote ’em all out of office, regardless of party or quality of service, just to send a message to the rest of the horde of freeloaders that the most they can expect is one term to make their ill-gotten fortune, then it’s back to pounding the bricks. The only glitch in this process occurs when both major party candidates are non-incumbents (i.e., running for a seat vacated by another of their kind who has indulged his aspirations for HIGHER office). In that case, I would vote for the Libertarian Party candidate, going on the principle that Libertarians are for minimalist government interference in our lives.

Folks, if you really believe that this great "Change" is the Next Big Thing, then you haven’t been paying attention and you haven’t been doing your homework. At least the guy is telling you up front that he intends to scrap our system and impose a new, heavy-handed one consisting of income redistribution (socialism...read Marx), government mandates on everything from environmental regulations to preschool education to health insurance, and a "nanny state" approach that treats the American citizen as if he/she were a helpless child in need of constant supervision and correction. Do the due diligence BEFORE you vote, because bitching and moaning won’t cut it on November 5th. The elitist oligarchs are counting on you to meet their expectations that we’re not sophisticated, educated or intelligent enough to govern ourselves (they’ve been looking down their noses at you for years..."clinging to their guns and religion"). Let’s give them a "November Surprise" they won’t soon forget. Your business, not to mention our way of life and our future, depend on making the right choices now.

Clem

David, Do you pay ANY income tax? If you do then YOUR tax dollars are ending up being given to someone who doesn’t pay. YES ..some of that money is yours!! Do you like that? If you do you’ll be happy to know that there will be more of that on the way.If you think that ONE step in that direction will be the end of that road.......my brother ..THINK AGAIN.When asked what programs they would cut during the debate neither candidate could name EVEN ONE.Why ??? Because when the government takes that first step towards something they NEVER take a step back.There are many worthless programs that have little usefulness and are a waste. But our potential President[either one ] can’t name ONE. Nope...not one. Now with the many hundreds or thousands of government programs our future President [either one] can’t name ONE worth eliminating what does that tell you? They can tell you all about what they are going to do for each and every American and even claim it will cost nothing. C’mon folks.They can’t name one to cut but have DOZENS to promise in order to get your vote......are you not getting it? I think the term "sheeple" applies here.

And David,You sound rather condecending when you say we are all intelligent adults here. Of course we are all "adults" here! No one is telling you not to vote as you wish.

Oh and John, I agree with you. I have an old rental house that has no curbs at the street and no storm sewer drains. Every time it rains it floods the yard with an inch or so of water and eventully soaks into the ground in a few hours.I now get a bill from the city even though the house is empty and the water is shut off, for a "stormwater drain fee" When I called to complain they said "well the water ends up in a drain somewhere" when in fact it does not. ....Thats the way our GOV works.. You pay cause they need not because you get!!

If you are single, you are "rich" at $200,000.

READ MY LIPS:ANY POLITICIAN WILL SAY WHATEVER THEY HAVE TO SAY TO GET ELECTED!! (I’m smiling Barbara...)

Obama picked $250K because he knows the vast majority of Americans are under that income. Therefor it’s safe and popular.

Don’t be fools, either of them will raise taxes. If it’s not personal taxes it will be corporate taxes.

We just had 8 years of Republicans and the government has grown 40% during that period. Does that mean that the Dems would have grown it by 80%? Probably so.

I think both parties are out of touch and unable to respond to our needs. I wish this dual party thing was reformed to promote the creation of more parties and bring more people and ideas to the table.

We need a leader that can unify and make us look beyond party line. I don’t see that in Obama or McCain.

I will vote for Obama though. I think McCain is way too old and I just cant see Palin being President. Plus we need to resolve the Irak conflict by giving them their country back, have UN forces play the police until they put their s... together and get out of there asap. McCain is obsessed about wining, I just don’t see what there is to win. We won’t win terrorism in Irak alone, it’s a world spread disease.
Sorry if I extrapolated beyond topic.
Patrice

There is a lot of paranoia going around this election season. Somehow there
is a fear that if (when) Democrats win we are going into a gray Socialist state
on November 5 and THE GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO TAKE OUR PROPERTY
AND FORCE THE RICH INTO POVERTY.

In actuality the Obama plan - if it were to pass Congress - favors the middle
class. Many of our employees would benefit. I kind of like the middle class.

As for those among us who are lucky enough to be in the over $250.000
personal income bracket, what’s the problem exactly? It’s a pretty lucky
situation to be in. IT MEANS YOU’RE DOING WELL. ENJOY IT.

I am no fan of writing the big IRS check every March. In fact I grumble and
moan about it. But as my accountant - who is pretty savvy about finding
deductions - says, it is a pretty patriotic thing to do. Personally, I enjoy the
interstate highway program, National Parks, free libraries and an educated
youth.There are things I do not agree with paying for, like the war in Iraq, but
as a citizen of this country I pay my fair share. As Socialist as it sounds, I
would not mind a National Health Program. This is from someone who pays
100% health care for the employees of our firm. I believe the measure of a
society is one who takes care of its citizenry. I do not take a special joy in
seeing children go hungry so I can buy a boat.

Feel free to flame and trash me for not wanting to keep all my toys for
myself. By the way I pay plenty of taxes, and also manage to live pretty well.
No one’s going hungry around my house. If you’re fortunate enough to own
a
business that has to pay taxes seems pretty American to me.

Peace.

Matthew,

I respect your comments and thought process on the issue as discussed. I do not question your intentions and I am glad that you feel so honored to do what you say you are willing to do and I do believe that you do it.

As far as the middle class, I respect and love ’em to. In fact, I am one of them.

I do want to ask you however; How do you feel about giving your money to be re-distributed to persons who don’t even try to get a job. I’m talking about healthy individuals who are just plain lazy, who sit around their homes watching Ricky Lake (or whoever is on the tv now a days) smoking cigarettes and not even attempting to work for a living to earn their keep and get a free hand out. Because I see Obama’s plan accelerating this sort of thing. What’s the saying "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime"?

Please, no bashing intended, just wanted you to expand your thoughts.

I wasn’t aware that Obama has put forth a plan to increase the welfare program. I recall that there was some "welfare reform" many years ago that put some limits on the number of years a person could get benefits.

I have been a Democrat for the last few decades. I am a small business. Neither my business nor my family makes over $250,000 a year. I believe the discusssion about raising taxes refers to INDIVIDUALS, not corporations. I guess if you are a sole proprietorship making over $250K, then that means you. Otherwise, it is irrelevant.

I feel pretty much the same way that Matthew does. What really irks me is the HUGE corporations (probably no ’scaper companies fall in that group) that have the political clout to get all sorts of tax loopholes.

I’m impressed that so far we’ve been able to discuss this in a civilized manner. My mom taught me never to discuss sex, politics or religion. Both of my parents will probably be voting for McCain - they are much wealthier than I.

Matthew

This could be the start of socialism, this is exactly how it starts. The
government already takes property, and their will always be poor with us. We
should only help those who can’t help themselves not those who won’t. The
system is out of wack, favorable to those who don’t want to work. I have been
working since I was 15 and I am tired of supporting lazy people.

If I am making over $250.00 luck has nothing to do with it. We should all be
paying a fair share of taxes not penalized because we have been successful. I
should be free do do with my profits as I see fit not what the government
wants me to do with them. We have a very successful food bank that takes
care of the hungry that is supported by the church and local business people.

The health care does need tweaking but does not need to be run by the
government.


Ok those are some of my thoughts I am not trashing you just giving you my
view. Chris

Sheila,First, when you take money from a taxpayer and give it to a non taxpayer it is "welfare" no matter if you want to label it as "rebate", "stimulus" or what ever.Second,a small business that is incorporated pays corporate tax on profits if it is left in the company account.Then when it is paid out as salary it is taxed again.So many small businesses are forced to take money out of the corporation and pay taxes on it in the form of payroll then loan it back to the corporation for things like expansion,inventory,adding employees, etc. If you raise taxes on that money then you are hendering the ability of a company to reinvest in those things. If the government really wanted to add jobs it might be better to give a tax break to companies adding jobs as an incentive rather than simply "transferring the wealth" in a giveaway or some other form of welfare.

Apparently the media have done a very thorough job of creating a smokescreen to obscure the real numbers of the Obama plan and make it seem like a flag-waving exercise in patriotic duty, judging from the response of some here.

Income redistribution...the taking of income from higher earners to be given to lower earners...is a primary tenet of Marxism and all socialist systems, communism being an extreme example of a hybrid of socialism with outright totalitarianism. It seems a "nice" thing to do, especially when it’s couched in terms like helping poor people and all, but it is antithetical to the American way (remember that biblical admonition, "give a man a fish and he eats for a day; teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime"?). What motivation would people have to build businesses and succeed if 50% or more of what they earn is seized by the government, not for road construction or development of other infrastructure projects or enhancing national security, but to bring up the income level of underachieving members of society to a more comfortable level? And what motivation would those underachievers have to then go ahead and get a better education or job training or compete in the job market if they are already being well taken care of by the government? Okay, here’s a hint: "none" is the answer.

I heard a young African American man call in to a radio talk show the other day and express his frustration with the attitude of many in his own community, indeed his own immediate family, toward social programs and government subsidies of non-working members of the community. He said his own family has lived off welfare and disability payments for three generations at least, and only himself and one other family member out of seven have EVER paid any income tax. He feels that the federal government has created a dependency relationship with such communities and families that has destroyed any hope for a real future for them, and that the Democrat policies since the 1960’s Great Society constitute NOT a "helping hand" but actually are more racist than Republican policies during the Reagan and two Bushes’ years in office.

As for "education", that has become just another method of indoctrination of children to the ideas of socialism advocated by the Democrat party, conditioning them to be more open to and accepting of things like income redistribution and "fairness" doctrines in general. The unionization of teachers and the bureaucratization of the education industry by generally left-leaning elitists are two major illustrations of that trend, along with the abandonment of a rigorous curriculum geared toward success in the real world in favor of one oriented toward "social consciousness", social promotion and a general "feel-good" philosophy.

We are in serious trouble here, folks. We will lose our ability to compete in world markets as well as trashing our own domestic economy unless we get back to the basics that made our country great in the first place: solid educational standards, creation of jobs and new wealth, sound fiscal and investment policies and an achievement-oriented national self-image unencumbered by delusions of utopia and unwarranted feelings of guilt and shame about our power and success in the world.

Think hard about this before you waste your vote on November 4th, because by the time 2012 comes along, it may be too late to undo the damage.

Clem

Well put Clem!

That old saying "give a man a fish..." has wrongly been attributed to the Bible. I believe it to be a Chinese proverb. However, there is a biblical admonition to "Give to all who ask."

Joe,

Thanks for the clarification on the origin of the saying.

Jesus’ admonition to "give to all who ask" does NOT mean that we are supposed to give away our possessions to anyone who requests something of us...Biblical interpretations of this saying universally take its meaning as being willing to aid someone who is in genuine need, and there is a historical/social context to the original meaning of the saying that distinguishes this sense of the admonition from woodenly interpreting it as requiring that you give people whatever they ask of you without discretion. Maybe people who understand Hebrew better than I do can explain it better, but there is a parallel meaning to it that involves not being an ingrate or failing to return what is borrowed from someone.

I won’t argue semantics, though. The truth is self-evident. And I don’t want Caesar to render my possessions to others for me; I’ll make that call, and often do, when I make charitable contributions or volunteer my time in the service of others.

Clem

Clem,
Well said.And as the Bible has been brought up,The Church says God only wants 10 precent,the first ten pencent to be exact.The Government wants more than four times that amount and a presidential candidate wants to quiet those "clinging to their guns and religion" while separating them from the power and influence of their wealth.Part of a Maxist doctrine if ever there was one.

Interesting observation. This posting has had almost 450 views (although many are repeat visits from those who are active here), but only 12 individuals have come forth to express their thoughts. Wonder what the other 400 lurkers have to say about this whole process? Come on...speak up.

We all have some strong opinions here....maybe after Nov 4th we should have a thread on sex and one on religion. Yes Sheila, you can also participate even thought you were told those subjects were not for discussion.

Oh, by the way, my vote is for Clem. I have to 100% agree with him.

Rick

Boy am I glad I’m Canadian

Yeah, you hosers already got that socialism gig down pat!

Well, pretty soon we’ll be coming to visit while we get our gallstones removed and whatnot. How’s the Chinese food and pizza up there?

Clem

OK, I’m back again, guys. Been doing some hiring and Christmas sales but I needed to jump back on the board, even if only for a minute.

I am, in spirit, an Independent, but have registered as a Democrat, and have Democrate leanings, as you have probably already deduced. I will be the first to admit that I do not follow every detail of every proposed policy. Having couched my responses with that information:

Our country was founded by people who did not agree with the beliefs of their home country, England, and who left for another land (other than the Native Americans, of course). With that "rebel" spirit as a strong part of our heritage, I do not buy into the argument that we are heading towards a Marxist society. The "rebels" will raise their voices if we get too close to that situation, I am sure. Too broad a stroke of the paintbrush with that assumption, "guys".

Secondly, Presidential term limitations will prevent the long-term plans of any President with plans for a Marxist government.

Thirdly, Sheila, the program that you are referring to about welfare reform is one called "workfare", a program initiated by Bill Clinton (A DEMOCRAT! Surprise, surprise!). The goal was to set up a lifetime limit for anyone applying for welfare. If I remember correctly, after 3 years’ worth of payments, they are required to have employment on some level...can’t remember the specifics, though. Guess what? Who usurped that program? Our current president. He extended limitations and added all kinds of of exceptions, thus nullifying the impact that it was intended to have....that it was a program to help people over the rough spots in life, off and on, not to indoctrinate them into a life of dependency.

I’ll add more later, but had to put my 2 cents in for now. Lively discussion... and still polite. Thanks! This is impressive!

Julie

12/21/12

I actually think this is a very respectful discourse. We can all have differing
viewpoints and find common ground without getting over emotional and
going crazy. I go to another (non industry) MB and the election is a very hot
button topic - and not everyone is being nice.

You can find very rich people who vote Democrat and very poor who vote
Republican, so there are obviously many other issues at play beyond
economics.

Since this thread topic is about $$, I’ll respond to John’s question to me. No,
I
don’t believe in giving able bodied workers a free ride while the rest of us
work our tushes off. As Julie said, it was great when the Clinton
Administration started tweaking with the welfare program to promote a
better sense of personal responsibility. I do find it curious as well that our
country can write an 850 BILLION dollar check to some very rich financial
institutions that have been playing a dangerous shell game. Many in our
country shiver at the thought of socialized think nothing of bailing out
billionaires (though I know it was wildly unpopular with many)

If anyone has an actual video of Obama saying he wants to ’redistribute
wealth’, I’d like to see it. From what I understand of that particular topic, he
was misquoted by a Wall Street Journal reporter. His spending plan is
provocative to say the least, and proposes a lot of investment in alternative
energies.

Glad to hear a Canadian chiming in, was hoping that would happen!
Regarding health care, we already pay soooo much as a country, and still have
millions not covered. Between all the overlapping coverages for Worker’s
Comp, Auto, Liability, not to mention premiums, out-of-pocket, and
advertising. Not to mention government funding for new medicines and
treatment, and then the public being charged on the other end. Not to
mention that once someone in our country is treated for a serious disease, it
is very hard for them to get insurance again. Sweet. And while we are at it, I
think high quality child care should be widely available, so people CAN work.

I am still holding strong that it is patriotic in my opinion to pay taxes. Like
everyone, I feel government waste is very frustrating. Better checks and
balances please. There is much the gov’t gets RIGHT in our country and goes
unrecognized. Turn the tap on and get pure water. Live through a 7.5
earthquake without your building falling on your head. It would be great if
everyone could be trusted to do the right thing without being regulated, but
sadly it is not the case.

The last eight years have been a financial disaster. The current president
entered office with a 200 Billion surplus, his legacy is a 700 Billion deficit.
Plus that big loan from China to bail out our banks. Plus that big expensive
war.

Where does everyone think the cash comes from? How badly in debt do you
want your children and grandchildren to be?

Okay, I just have to ask. What do you all think about Obama’s plan to give tax breaks to American companies that employ American workers?

The term limits we really need are on Congressional seats...Presidents can’t do much without a congressional majority of their own party members. Our Representatives and Senators are the ones who are gaming the system and are so entrenched in their positions of power and influence that many are virtually impossible to dislodge for decades.

With a supermajority in at least one house of Congress and a Democrat president, the Democrat party will be able to push through any program they like and no one can do anything to stop them. I don’t know about you, but having Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid directing policy for the next eight years with a rubber stamp president is scary. You think we have deficits now, hold on tight, it’s gonna be a very bumpy ride.

Clem

And let’s not forget the long-term damage to our constitutional republic that can be done by the selection of at least two or three activist left-leaning Supreme Court justices that would likely be appointed without resistance from the Senate in the next eight years. They would legislate changes from the bench, along with similar appointees at the District court level, that will override the will of the people and even that of Congress and make permanent changes to our way of life and government with NO accountability to the American people for their decisions.

Also very scary, and not very democratic (small "d").

Clem

Sorry, Clem, but your concerns about the future with a left-leaning Supreme Court is exactly how I feel about the current right-leaning Supreme Court...scary.

Again, it comes down to what your philosophies are.

Julie

Clem, your comments about Congress and the Supreme Court are the real issues that teter the balance of power and are dead on.Correct me if I’m wrong but Clinton had a Republican Congress when the "workfare" program was passed. He did not sponsor the bill but did not veto it either.I’m not sure when the changes to it were made in the Bush administration but I don’t recall Bush proposing that legislation either.The point made about a Congress that doesn’t have balance and can do anything they want is truly a scary thing on either parties side.Thats where independents votes are usually cricial because their desire is to have neither party have absolute control.So all you idependents out there[I’m one too] make your vote count for balance if nothing else.

Julie,

I must respectfully disagree. Activist (read: liberal) jurists tend to frequently rule outside the realm of interpreting the Constitution (their specified role therein) and actually legislate from the bench, thereby circumventing the will of the people and their representatives in Congress. The three-sided Constitutional system is supposed to impose checks and balances (remember 4th grade American History?) on one another, but the decrees of an activist judiciary give the people virtually no recourse (except to hold a constitutional convention, which is a rarity for many reasons), since the Supreme Court decisions cannot be appealed nor overruled by Congress or the President. That’s a fatal flaw in the system, created by justices overreaching their stated Constitutional authority because they know there is no higher authority to overrule them.

Clem

AMEN Clem!

Matthew:

Obama didn’t say "redistribute the wealth", but he did say he wants to "spread the wealth" in the infamous interview with Joe the Plumber. See the YouTube video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUvwKVvp3-o

Rick

Matthew & Rick,

I seem to remember Obama saying something of spreading the wealth in the second debate (Town Hall Style) as well.

But I have no tape to go back to verify this so someone correct me.

John

I want to know what Greg Eberly meant by his cryptic post:

"12/21/12"

Isn’t that the date that the world is supposed to end because it’s the last day of the Mayan calendar? ;-)

Clem

Oh my God!!! (Sorry about using BO’s name in vain.)

Forgot all about the ending of the world in 2012. That is just before Obama will be sworn in for his second term. Do you think that the "Messiah" will have any influence in changing or extending this date? Hope so. Maybe it will be the reason for re-electing him.
Rick

Aha, I found it.

Predictably, an entire community and cottage industry revolving around the date 12/21/2012, the last date of the Mayan Long Count calendar, has sprung up on the web. Everything from the Apocalypse to New Age New Year’s Day has been predicted for that date, and people are busily engaged in commerce related thereto.

Unfortunately for the adherents to this belief, the Mayans had numerous "cycles" in their timekeeping system, and this date represents just one of many cyclical termination dates.

Sorry to be a wet blanket, but chances are worse things will happen to us by that time than Yellowstone turning into a megavolcano.

Clem

Clem gets an "A" for recognizing (and researching) the date. True about the Mayan cycles, but the ancient Egyptians targeted this date, too, as well as Nostradamus, the Oracle at Delphi, etc. The Mayans didn’t predict the end of the Earth; they predicted the end of the Earth as we know it. That leaves things pretty open.

Wet blanket or no, Clem is right about worse things happening to us before Yellowstone blows. Part of the 2012 agenda is that the anti-Christ will return (finally) and rule the greatest nation on Earth. Imagine this ... Sarah Palin, aka the anti-Christ, is president of the USA. Now THAT’S scary!!! :)

Sorry for taking this thread a bit off track, but a little mysticism in the midst of all this political BS does no harm.

OK, back to the original ’share/spread the wealth’ topic. But don’t worry,
Greg, there’s a Sarah Palin example

* we - taxpayers - can see our dollars ’redistributed’ to AIG when they spend
themselves into a corner. They in turn can take the first check and go on a
spa junket.

* we - taxpayers can be taxed and have our country’s once fine credit rating
and standing in the world so we can finance a very expensive war. We then
have the pleasure of ’redistributing’ our hard earned money to firms like
Halliburton and Bechtel.

* we - consumers of petroleum products - can pay more at the pump
because of higher taxes the oil companies are paying in Alaska. The citizens
of that state are then given $1200 apiece in wealth ’redistribution’

* And back to the original point of this thread (which is a good one and I
thank Rick for starting it) If you’re a ’Joe The Plantscaper’ that makes in the
$40.000 - like the ’real’ Plumber... you will get a middle class tax break
under the Obama tax plan. If you’re a Joe in the $250.000 bracket, you may
experience a roll back of the Bush tax cuts that you have enjoyed for the past
few years. But if you’re lucky, you’ve invested all those savings have with Bear
Stearns and Morgan Stanley. Oops.

Being born and raised in a country where there is socialized medicine; I must warn everyone that you won’t like it! Oh, you can see a doctor you like, but there is no appointment time, just show up at 9:00 am and wait your turn.

Need further tests, you’d have to go somewhere else, and a date will be forwarded to you. Need to see a speciailist, you will be notified by mail when an opening is available with one of the speciailists out there. Need surgery, any kind, you’ll be put on the list, the waiting list that is.

I could go on forever on how terrible socialized healthcare is, but I’ll end this message with: A very dear friend of mine living in England saw her doctor in May, and was told she needs open heart surgery. She had the angio thing done in June, saw a specialist in July, who wondered how she was still alive with the way her heart was working. He told her she could die at any time. . . and put her on the emergency waiting list. She’s still waiting and probably will worry herself to death.

Even the uninsured wouldn’t want that!
Sonja

Sonja,

Since we were both born and raise in a socialistic foreign country, I would like
to give my experience as well...

Just like there are good and bad hospitals, there must be good and bad
socialized medicine. We shouldn’t qualify all government controlled health
insurance as being bad. It is certainly not the case in France. I do want to
emphasize that it is not the whole health industry but only the insurance part
that is socialized over there.

I personally never had to complain about the system. You can pick the
doctors and hospitals you want and there is no more waiting than here.

Just to give a few examples as well, my sister was diagnosed with breast
cancer and it took less than 2 weeks after the mammogram results to do the
biopsy and have a lumpectomy done. All expenses were covered.
My son was born over there, my wife (now ex...) stayed 6 days in the clinic.
That’s just standard procedure. (it might be less time now) Again, we picked
the doctor and all costs were covered except for the upgrade of the private
room from semi private.

Let’s also mention that doctors do house calls (great for seniors) and when
you go visit your doctor, he only sees one patient a the time. Which means he
doesn’t go from room to room. He has one office, that’s where you see him.

Now I will say that doctors are much better off here than they are over there.
You don’t become a doctor because you want to be rich. You won’t be poor
but certainly not rich. (very unfair to them since they have to work so hard to
get where they are)

The one thing I liked the most about the system is that I didn’t have to think
about it. It was available when I needed it and I far as I know, it was working
fine. (you do pay for it and it’s not cheap either but it’s taken out of you
paycheck)

Is it a better system than here? It’s just different. People here like to be in
control and keep the government involvement to a minimum. And it’s fine, I
like it that way as well. (even though we do need to fix our health insurance
system. It is unacceptable to live in the richest country in the world and have
so many people having to worry about coverage they can’t often afford).

I just want people to be more open minded and not so scared and infuriated
as soon as we mention socialized medicine. It is another partial or full option
that we should not neglect.

I just wanted to set the record straight.

After all if our system was perfect, we wouldn’t be talking about it.

Like Julie says, it comes down to what your philosophies are.

Patrice

FYI
Here is another Obama "redistribution of the wealth" video that was referred to above.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iivL4c_3pck

Rick

Wether it’s "redistribution of wealth" by Obama or "100 year war" by McCain, we
need to stop focussing on such details.
These guys have been on the road for 2 years and every single speech, question
or interview is tapped and recorded. Are they focussing themselves on those
sayings? are they making it the bases of their campaign?
How many things have we said in the last 2 years that could be interpreted the
wrong way and is not a reflexion of who we are what we think?
Yes Obama is a leftist and yes McCain is pro Irak war but come on guys, let’s not
play the media’s game and let’s focus on the big picture!
Patrice

Patrice is correct, which is why it’s so important NOT to give one party complete control of government. A Democrat president with a Democrat-controlled House and Senate, plus the strong likelihood of two more leftist Supreme Court justices coming on board in the next few years would make for an unfettered, one-party agenda, which is NEVER a good thing.

To maintain checks and balances, the veto power of McCain and his ability to appoint justices who will interpret the Constitution and not legislate from the bench would be a desirable and appropriate counter-balance to the Democrat majorities in both houses of Congress.

"Power tends to corrupt...absolute power corrupts absolutely." (Lord Acton)

Clem

Okay, one last bit of data to process on this topic...

Forget about the people earning $250K and over...for the sake of argument, let’s say that none of us are in that club.

Instead, consider a much more likely scenario for a small business owner: for people making $110,000 to $120,000 a year, McCain’s tax plan will save you 2% over what you’re paying now. Meanwhile, the Obama tax plan will INCREASE your tax liability by 8%. That’s a 10% swing.

How many of you can tolerate giving 10% MORE of your income to the government? That’s like tithing to a new church...I know he’s supposed to be The Messiah, but gimme a break!

Clem

clem please give us all a break.

we know how you feel!

Not my feelings...I heard this from a tax analyst on IndieTalk on Sirius radio this evening. I had heard both sides’ figures on the famous $250K income level, but I (and I’ll wager most of you) have not heard anyone discuss the effect on more earthbound earners in such simple terms before now. Why is that, I wonder?

Clem

Sonia and Patrice, thank you for the differing perspectives on socialized
health care. It is a huge issue, with ’no one size fits all’ conclusion.

Just as there are different forms of socialism, there are different types of
capitalism. Take Microsoft and Wal Mart, for example. Different businesses
and different business models to be sure.

Microsoft pays really well, salary, stock options decent health benefits etc.
Wal Mart, not so much. Basically minimum wage, health care if you are really
lucky. Better pray your kids never get sick.

Bill Gates is rich, one of the richest men in the world. The Walton family is
rich, one of the richest families in the world. The Gates Foundation funds
AIDS research and treatment in Africa. Many environmental causes. The
Waltons have been shamed into a foundation that doesn’t appear to have
much of a point rather than a PR angle that extolls the Waltons’ virtues.

Who would YOU rather work for? The responsible ’everybody wins’ capitalist?
Or the ’me first and screw you’ capitalists?

Thanks, Matt. I’m with you, but haven’t had a lot of time to wane philosophical here. I’ve told all of my potential employees during my interview process that interviews are not a place to try to trick people. They are a forum in which to analyze whether your ethics and philosophies line up with theirs. They are the key to long-term success of the team...good matches.

Julie

Matthew,

Bad example there...Microsoft is pretty much a monopoly due to its heavy-handed marketing practices and the fact that Gates got a jump on the industry and shut out Apple and other early competitors. So he can afford to be "enlightened" when it comes to perks for his employees.

True, WalMart has been hounded into being a better corporate citizen, but that’s mainly a function of their southern roots and original target demographic. Until recently, WalMart didn’t market to more affluent, liberal-minded consumers, having had the rep of being a junk store selling poor quality goods with awful customer service. Now they have to be "green" and more P. C. than before in order to expand their market share of that demographic.

Clem

I’d have to cast my vote for Matthew on this one!

There’s a BIG difference between being a "mopolistic" (to quote you Clem) business and being a cancerous one!

Stories abound of all the good done by one company and all the not-so-good done by the other company which preys on its suppliers and in fact puts many of them out of business as it does many small business in the communities it enters, albeit in the interest of providing low prices to the masses!

A few years ago I read a piece in a business publication (Inc. magazine, I think) about Vslasic pickles vs. Walmart and it was quite disturbing. Couldn’t find that article now, but this link to a reference to the case may be an eye-opener to some:
http://theinsanewriter.blogspot.com/2008/09/vlasic-pickles-vs-wal-mart.html

Steve

PS...Clem FWIW, Apple seems to have done quite well for itself in recent years despite being "shut out" early on.

Steve,

That kind of cutthroat pricing policy goes on in every type of business sector. For instance, big box home improvement stores and discount chains pull the same crap on their suppliers as WalMart did with Vlasic, and worse. Ever heard of scan-based trading? That’s the system currently in vogue by which the mega-store hammers its suppliers and controls supplier invoicing costs...the vendor stocks the displays in each store and doesn’t get paid until the merchandise sells, or "scans". Losses due to in-store theft, shoplifting, spoilage or other "shrinkage" are charged against the invoices submitted by the vendor for product delivered to each store. The vendor has very little say in this regard if they want to remain an approved vendor to that chain.

Beyond that, chain stores will often "re-visit" pricing after the fact, as one of our former wholesale customers found out a few years ago. One big box with whom they did about 75% of their plant business as a rack jobber (which included delivering fresh, pre-priced plants, stocking the displays, rotating old stock back to their greenhouses, and maintaining the displays by sending around a technician to groom and water them weekly or more) consisted of sales to this one chain (I know, bad idea). At the end of the summer one year, the big box sent all their plant suppliers a curt letter stating that sales of green goods that season had been "below expectations" and "fell short of sales goals", and so the big box chain was taking a 10% "rebate" off the total gross invoice amount for each vendor that year! No negotiations, no "please", nada. This hurt many vendors so badly that some went out of business almost immediately, with the ripple effect of THEIR vendors and suppliers and other creditors taking the hit along with them.

So big business holds a big, ruthless hammer, regardless of public persona and P. R. efforts to build a positive image via philanthropy or enlightened treatment of employees. Again, they can afford to be "nice", on other people’s dime if necessary.

And yes, Apple has done very well recently, but don’t forget they almost went under before the iPod. And that was not something that was integral to their core business model up to that point. Since then, they have evolved into a cutting-edge creator of new kinds of technologies that make Microsoft look even stodgier by comparison (see: all those Windows vs. Mac TV spots). So Microsoft is now the General Motors of computing...we’ll see whether or not that’s ultimately a good thing for both Microsoft and the consumer.

Clem

If you ever grew up or lived in a small town as I have you would remember that before the days of walmart the selection of product was low and the prices were very high at the small local stores IF you could find one where you lived.I don’t understand why walmart is always made out to be nothing but a bad thing and yet the parking lots a always full.I realize the public relations issue is not a plus for them but are they the worst citizen we have?How about Pilgrams Pride? Talk about using the small rural guy as slave labor...it doesnt get much worse.But we all enjoy the cheap prices of chicken raised by the labor of rural America when we go to the store.I think perhaps Walmart is the biggest and easiest target for people to focus on when they have a gripe.You don’t have to supply them or work for them or buy from them.But they do seem to provide something that people want and need.

Jerry, I would agree with you that I "don’t have to supply them or work for them or buy from them" and I don’t!

As far as whether they are the worst citizen we have, I wouldn’t know the answer to that, but as the world’s largest company, they sure could be setting a better example of what good corporate citizenship is all about. I could make an analogy between their industry leader and ours as far as setting a better example and you’d likely agree with me, but that would be a whole other can of worms.

Of course their parking lots are full. They have low prices!

They will probably be double decker stacked for some time given the state of our economy. Hopefully they’ll pump some of those profits back into the pockets of their thousands of employees pockets in the manner of some decent benefits and salaries.

Steve

What would you consider "decent" salaries and benefits? And how much extra should consumers have to pay for merchandise sold at a store in order to accomplish that social engineering goal? The way I see it, WalMart is competing with other stores for employees as well as for market share. If they are satisfied with the quality of employee that they get for their H. R. dollars, then they must know something that some of us don’t...namely, that you don’t need a college- or trade-school-educated person to stock shelves, scan barcodes at a register, unload trucks, etc.

In the past, our culture did not place such high expectations for earnings and benefits on certain types of job descriptions...they were considered "entry-level", "temporary" (as with college students), "transient", etc. People were expected to aspire to better jobs via experience/promotion, training, education, etc., not stay in these kinds of jobs forever. I think the assumption that WalMart employees are unhappy and oppressed is unfair to all concerned. Some may be, but they may also have unrealistic expectations for compensation based on their education, experience, ability, etc. Others may be perfectly happy working part-time, weekends or even full time as a retiree or second income earner for what they get at WalMart, even if other people look down their noses at that rate of pay and benefits. That’s not WalMart’s problem, as I understand it they have a pretty good employee advancement program for their associates to progress to supervisory and management positions IF QUALIFIED. Therein lies the rub...there are many, many undereducated and underqualified people out there who think they have been dealt a bad hand and deserve better...there’s not much that can be done to assuage their anger and disappointment that their lives didn’t turn out better, and often society’s institutions (education, government, business) get the blame. Personal responsibility isn’t a popular brand these days.

How WalMart deals with its vendors is one thing...nobody HAS TO do business with them. How they deal with their employees is another...there are laws that guarantee minimum standards and wages. How we choose to perceive a company is quite another...we all get to vote with our wallets at the very least. But to hold every company to an unrealistically high standard without regard to the individual specifics of that company’s business is unfair. I’m no fan of WalMart...their customer service stinks in-store, the merchandise can be good or not so good, and checkout is a nightmare. But I don’t have to shop there to get a good price on things I want to buy, and sometimes I don’t. They will reap what they sow eventually, as most companies do (again, see: General Motors).

Clem

I haven’t read all of the posts but I wanted to chime in as an employee. I hope you all understand my need for privacy as this is a small industry, for all it’s size.

I’ve been working for the same company almost 16yrs and haven’t seen a raise in almost three of those years. I hold our company’s pesticide licensing as well as spend much of my time teching our largest account, a hospital. I also help the owner with computer invoicing. I make 26K a year.

Now I don’t know how many of you have benefited under Bush but I know us 4 techs have helped to grow our company. We have no sales staff nor installers because WE do it all. None of us have benefited. We haven’t lost many accounts either. The owner is very hands off and spends much of their time boating down at their second home.

Should my husband be injured or worse, I couldn’t afford the house or cars we now enjoy despite having life insurance. My husband works, as a supervisor, in construction, and we all know how that industry is doing. His is a salaried position so that does help as far as receiving a steady paycheck.


I wouldn’t know what a cost of living adjustment looked like if it walked up and tried to shake my hand.

My point to all of this rambling is that the current administration has done NOTHING to help us out. We’ve lost over 1/3 of our 401(K), food prices are through the roof and we have been struggling for the past few months just trying to keep all of our bills paid.

I love this work, I truly do but it may come to the point of me taking my license to either a pest control company or the federal government as a Plant Quarantine Inspector.

I’m voting for Obama. McCain promises to be more of the same and we just won’t make another four years of this, we’ll be in bankruptcy. Unlike when a business files, WE have to pay it back.

McCain wants to cut Capital Gains taxes, again, to what? something like 7%?! His health care plan will do nothing for me. I’d actually prefer the single payer system that all Senators and Congressmen enjoy, it’s socalized.

From one employee’s VOP,
APL

Plant Lady,
It seems that your employer could have done far more for you, had he worked
towards growing his business, than the government.
As far as having an impact on your life, you should expect a lot more from him
than you should expect from Bush or any other President.
Don’t take me wrong, I’m with you on choice for the next President.
You need to find a company that truly appreciates your skills and values so you
can get the salaries and benefits you are worth.
The government can’t do that for you.

Patrice

Patrice,

Thank you for your response.

I never said I wanted government help in better benefits or salary.

I don’t.

My point was that ’trickle down’ economy that conservatives like to talk about didn’t trickle down at this company. I’m thinking that I’m not alone in my assessment either. Wages all over the country are stagnant and have not kept up with the GDP Index at all.

Instead jobs are outsourced to cheaper labor in India or China while the CEOs make more then 400 times their lowest paid employee, in some instances.

BHO is correct in that we need to penalise companies who do this and reward companies who keep and make new jobs here.

IMO, we cannot continue as a consumer/service based country. People can’t consume (buy) if they can barely afford the bare necessities. We need to get back to manufacturing. I think our industry has somewhat of a head start on it as we are part of the "green" movement and this may be one good direction to look into for this country to jumpstart the economy again.

I don’t want to side track this thread with my personal work woes. Maybe I’ll start a thread on it sometime and see what advice can be offered.

Regards,
APL

I don’t think manufacturing will ever come back to America unless it is some new kind of product. Maybe some day I’ll be able to think up that idea and be richer then Bill Gates.

The Auto industry is asking for bail outs now. Which I don’t totally agree with; however, it is because the auto makers that we were able to win World War II. Due to their assembly lines being able to turn on a dime, they were able to make the jeep (my all time favorite of course), tanks, weapons, ammunition etc. Did you know our first space ship to the moon was designed by Chrysler engineers?? Not to get off on a tangent, but look what we might be losing if we lose the auto makers here in America. We truly will be outscourcing everything.
(Wow, that was a tangent.)

I think McCain will encourage and get more jobs here in America.

Think about all the jobs he would create if congress and the tree huggers would allow him to drill for oil here.

Engineering jobs designing environmentally refineres, drilling sites etc.

Construction workers building them.

More jobs for people to oversee/police that they are staying right with the environment. The tree huggers will get more jobs.

Workers to fill the refineries, drive the tank trucks etc. etc.

And these will all be American jobs, jobs of manufacturing here in America and the money will stay here as well.

And the icing on the cake, we can export it.

Tangent completed.

Addressing your tangent:

First, you are dead-on about the manufacturing aspect coming back to the US. I see no indication of any large scale investment in products for the future. We seem to be investing in less tangible industries, probably because there is faster ROI.

I’m no oil expert, but I am skeptical that there is enough oil in our country to address our financial problems longterm. In addition, we "treehuggers" would be stuck with all of the physical contaminant remnants that go along with it later. By the way, the last I heard, 80% of the oil leases granted by the US are not even being used. They are being held in reserve. What’s the point?

Julie

Julie,

Not all leased oil acreage is being drilled currently for several reasons:

1. Not every acre has the potential to be productive at current prices and costs to drill and remove the oil. A particular tract may have hundreds of acres leased, but of those acres maybe only a dozen are actually in production. You have to lease the whole tract to get the few productive acres in it, just as a gold mine may not yield anything on 95% of its acreage, but contains enough gold on the few remaining acres to justify leasing the entire tract.

2. The company leasing the acreage may not currently have the capital, for one reason or another, to drill on all the acreage it has leased at any given point in time.

3. There may be large pools of oil under a bunch of tracts that all drain together and can be tapped by drilling on only one portion of those tracts. Therefore, the company may count only the acreage where the rigs are located as "drilled", even though it is tapping oil that is located under other tracts it leases but that contain no rigs themselves.

4. After leasing tracts, companies conduct seismic and other more advanced testing and find that some tracts do not contain enough drillable oil that can be extracted economically at current prices, and so those tracts will remain untapped.

There are other factors and reasons for why currently leased land is not fully drilled, but you can read between the lines and realize that it’s about the economic feasibility of doing so at a given point in time, and also about changing circumstances relative to getting the oil out of the ground. Oil development, while highly technical in the exploration stages, is also still highly speculative in many respects, and companies risk capital on leases that may not pan out. That’s why they expect high reward on the other end when they are successful in extracting oil from some of those leases.

Bottom line: the more irons we have in the fire, the higher the probability of good outcomes.

Clem

It’s not only large corporations moving manufacturing out of the US. It’s American buyers who buy from those companies. Hines Pottery a small manufacturing company is slowly closing it’s doors because we can’t compete with the imports.

Trickle down will also affect other US companies that we work closely with.

Maybe I’ll become an Obama poster girl!!!!!! (NOT)
Sonja

Any thoughts on why the government (I’m assuming that’s who set up the leases) would lease land for drilling that is not feasible to drill? Or allocate such large areas of land that do not have oil as a part of the package, especially since land is at such a premium? You would think that there would be some conditions on owning the rights, such as a deadline timeframe in which to harvest, especially since I hear so many people whining about exploiting new areas for drilling.

Seems like convoluted thinking to me. I guess the philosophy is "if I own it, I can do what I want with it." Sounds a bit selfish to me, rather than thinking what is good for the country.

Julie

Julie,

The acreage involved is VAST...it’s just not economically feasible to do geological and seismic studies in detail on every square foot of these territories! Think TEXAS...ALASKA...OCEANS!!! This isn’t exact science, that’s why the risks and rewards can be so extreme. We have always rewarded risk-takers...nowadays, everybody wants an ironclad guarantee of success. Sadly, life’s not like that.

The government benefits up front by leasing at a figure that they are comfortable with for generating cash on the barrelhead, so to speak. The speculator (oil developer) takes a chance that his info and intelligence will enable him to find the largest and most accessible deposits and bring them to the surface...and then to market...as quickly and cheaply as possible and at a favorable market price for the oil.

The risk is all taken on by the oil developers...the government gets the sure dough up front, regardless of how much or how little oil ever comes out of the ground. Think of it a tenant farming for oil.

Clem

I think Obama put the nail in the coffin last night with his 30 minute ad. Smart guy. one week to go and I’m sure the press will be talking about this ad for at least the next 2 days and good ’ole John is going to be on the sidelines waving his arms for attention and none will give it. Can McCain outsmart this latest move of Obama?

My wife wants me to take all our retirement money out now, before he takes it and gives it to someone else.

I read somewhere that they did it in Argentina.

Let’s put our savings under the mattress with the gun under the pillow! (just
kidding, I promise)
We need to have faith in our Country and in the American people.
This is the most Democratic and Capitalistic place on earth because that’s
what the American people have created and they are not going to give it up
with the ascension of one potential President supported by the Senate
majority.
Do you really think 4 years of Obama would bring us to be compared with
Western European countries and then eventually to Eastern European
countries??
That’s what I hear is going to happen based on what they say on radio talk
shows. And obviously the message is being heard.
The Democrats are nowhere close to be Socialists nor do they want to.
Socialism is a lot more than raising taxes and reinforcing a few social
programs.
We cannot make assumptions and draw conclusions based on a few sound
bites that are often taken out of context.
This whole notion that Obama is a Socialist has been created by his
opponents to put doubts and create fear in the undecided minds.
Just like they did with Kerry and the fear of terrorism.

We are (still) in a democracy and ultimately the country will be taken where
the American people want it to go.
So right now voting is our best weapon.

Patrice

Patrice,

You seem to be ready and willing to leave a lot to faith and hope...sounds like a religion.

We can only vote based on someone’s record, not rhetoric. Obama has never run anything. He has been a "community organizer", a lawyer for community activist groups, a state senator with a horrendous voting record ("present"? What’s up with that?) and a secretive attitude about releasing his documents, a US Senator who has spent his entire term running for higher office. If this were anyone other than the "chosen one", he’d have been laughed out of the campaign long ago.

So it’s not always about democracy...sometimes it’s about the cult of personality and wishful thinking.

Clem

Clem,

I have faith and hope in our system and in the American people. Not so much
in the politicians.

I could have voted for McCain if he had stayed what he was, a centrist. I like
his record as trying to reach over both sides of the aisle. But I think he sold
off to the Right by bringing Palin instead of a more moderate candidate. I
wasn’t a citizen at the time but I would have favored him to Bush in the
primaries 8 years ago.
Now he is just too old to become President. I can’t take the chance to have
Palin as President. I believe Obama will get us out of the Iraq mess. And I
think he will also bring us a better health care system. As far as the economy,
WE are the economy and for that I have faith in the American people.

I do agree with you on Obama’s record. He doesn’t have much. But like
Schwaetzenegger (forgive the spelling) was saying about Palin: it’s not about
experience but about your ability and willingness to learn.
So sometimes you do have to go by the rhetoric. (Reagan didn’t have much
experience either and he turned out to be a great President)

And as far as religion, that should definitely be kept out of politics.(I know
you didn’t mean it that way, but I just wanted to bring that in...)

Patrice

I heard on the radio the following sound bites one after another yesterday put together -

First NoBama said
"If you make under $300,000 you will pay less taxes than you do now."

Then weeks later he said -
"If you make under $250,000 you will pay less taxes than you do now."

Then weeks later he said -
"If you make under $200,000 you will pay less taxes than you do now."

Then weeks later he said -
"If you make under $150,000 you will pay less taxes than you do now."

THEN Biden said last week -
"If you make under $100,000 you will pay less taxes than you do now."

It was their voices, I heard it.
I don’t know one family with two earners that makes less than that.What’s to say the next time it won’t be $50,000?And the Joe the plumber remarks?He said "revenue" which is a gross figure, NOT NET.

Be careful what you wish for.

I had the hardest time voting I ever have. I knew going into voting I would rather get raped in prison by 12 men than vote Obama so for me that decision was easy (and I have a tender tushie so um I’m not looking forward to that scenario).

Ok so then my strong republican instinct (I was a 1984 Reagan first tiem voter) kicked in.

I agree Palin went from energizing to "you betcha Joe" in a second.

Why I went in for early voting and voted McCain? His mom’s 93 so age to me didn’t kill off my vote.
Obama/Biden are 2 of the most liberal senators we have so..Thats not an option. Coupled with Obamas radical affiliations (yes to me Ayers/Khalili etc matter). Am I saying hes one of "dem Muslims"...Of course not.
But when you lie with dogs long enough you get fleas. I believe he has many fleas. That kills it for me. I do not believe in his "change".
I hate having to profess my political affiliation. No matter what I type here, I am in a no win. Some will agree, some not.
But I said what I feel so..There you have it. Lots more I could say but...I’ll keep it there.

Surprising that there is now more known about Joe the Plumber and his records than that of a Presidential candidate.In fact there is now an investigation into the abuse of power by some Obama supporters in the governing state for digging too much into government records of Joe.But you know it just a little simple prying ...nothing really to it .In addition we now know that at least two of Obama’s relatives, one aunt and one other , that are living in "the slums" in POVERTY. Hmmmm ...I guess "spread the wealth " doesn’t mean his money but YOURS !!But in his defense the money used to buy his house may not have been his at all but that a a felon friend.Well maybe he wasn’t a friend but just a neighbor that helped him out....you know like a good neighbor should....nothing really to it. Kinda like the Palastinian advocate...just another guy who he happened to be at a gathering with Obama...and well you know it was nothing...Oh well....maybe after he is elected we will get to know him better!

There’s a political forum sponsored by a local paper here in NJ that I visit from time to time, and I seldom post, just read the back-and-forth, but I saw so many people who had obviously drunk the Kool-Aid that I thought I’d post a simple message...

I actually HOPE Obama wins next Tuesday. A drunk or an addict has to hit bottom before he will seek help to turn his life around. Our country today is like a drunk or an addict, hooked on instant gratification and doing things "the easy way". In order to appreciate the OPPORTUNITIES (NOT guarantees) for success and happiness that we enjoy in America, we need to see what life’s like in most of the rest of the world. We need a ruthless, unfettered political machine to run wild, drunk with power, passing every feel-good social engineering program they can think of, no matter how impossible it will be to pay for it all, and then to have the whole thing crash and burn so dramatically that this type of thinking is discredited for all time.

Then, once we realize how good we HAD it, and how worthwhile it would have been to preserve that way of life, only then will we start back up from the bottom where we will find ourselves.

There were only two responses, both grudgingly in agreement with my point. Nobody who disagreed bothered to reply. Maybe they are all wearing blinders and can’t see the possibility of failure for their candidate. Or maybe I’m onto something.

Clem

Quote:" It’s time for someone besides those with wealth and power to have a shot at success."

Lets see..... How did those with wealth and power get it in the first place? Hell I know the answer....This is AMERICA!!A black guy born in Kenya is a multi millionair and almost President........no other country in the world has a shot, not a guarantee, at success more than AMERICA.What kind of rhetoric will the sheeple buy into next?There is NO COUNTRY in the world that has a government that has GIVEN them success.

Clem, I agree with your post.I think I’m ready to let it all hit rock bottom as well.

Clem, Jerry... c’mon you guys!

Whether the economy’s hit rock bottom yet or not (and hopefully it has) is neither Barak Obama’s or John McCain’s fault!

Hopefully, whichever one becomes the next president will be able to get us out of the gargantuan mess in a brisk manner.

Steve

Oh, and Jerry, I’m not sure where you’re getting your facts from, but Obama was born in Hawaii. Not in Kenya.

It’s like wishing the obese to get a heart attack so he quits eating or the smoker
to get cancer so he quits smoking. Or may be we should wish for a war on
American soil so people really understand what it’s like to be invaded.
That’s sounds a bit extreme.

We do have it very good in this country, i think most people can recognize that.
I think it’s our desire to always improve, change and progress that makes us
look at different options.

Not every one has the same vision for the future or the same ideas of what
would make our society better. It always comes down to the same.

Patrice

Steve, at least he has one qualification to be President!Even his place of birth has been in question however. But the point was that everyone already has "a shot at success" in this country as is proven by Obama himself.I did notice that the other points in my prior post were not rebutted.Also I don’t think Clem’s post was referring to just the economy but to a way of life and governing in this country.I do hope whoever is elected turns out to be a great President.But as an American I do have issues with some of the things that Obama has taken up as part of his agenda.The good thing that as of taday we all have the right to agree or disagree about all of this.For my TV I have Dish which has CNN but not Fox. Recently even Glenn Beck,the only conservative voice on Dish, has moved to Fox. I will be canceling my ATT Dish soon and going with a company that has both views.I just can’t stand to listen to Campbell Brown and her "no bias no bull" any longer.

By the way, I don’t really like McCain as President either but think he is the better of two bad candidates.Its not a choice I really feel strongly about.

Jerry is correct...the economic troubles are the least of our problems in some respects...economic cycles come and go and we go on. But crushing political mistakes, such as the Carter presidency, can seem to go on forever, taking a disproportionate amount of our time, energy and will to overcome and restore balance again. I’m talking about our entire way of life, which, if you read Obama’s writings and listen to recordings of his speeches and interviews over the past ten years, is what he targets as the "failure" of the American system to deliver on its "promises".

Yesterday, I listened to an entire recorded interview he did awhile back in which he lamented the failure of the civil rights movement to progress beyond the legal system/court decisions and into the economic system with its accomplishments. He said that the civil rights gained in the courts (right to vote, right to equality in public accommodations, right to an equal educational opportunity, desegregation of schools, etc.) should have been the starting point for a sea change in our society by which economic and social inequalities could have been addressed via legislation that should have redistributed wealth from richer to poorer classes of citizens...he said that verbatim, no inference on my part.

This, in my view, is a fatally flawed candidate. The American way is anathema to him and his supporters, who seem to feel that they have somehow been cheated because they have not achieved economic parity with some sectors of American society. It’s class warfare and class jealousy, pure and simple, and has nothing to do with justice or fairness. The opportunities are there, more today than ever in our history. Whether that’s good enough to suit the tastes of some portions of our population is their problem, not a problem with the American way of life. They need to get over it and get to work to make their own way in our society instead of complaining about it all the time.

I believe it was John F. Kennedy, a good Democrat if there ever was one, who said, "life is not fair."

Clem

Jerry. If there’s "something" that you and I agree on, it’s that this is the greatest country on earth!

As an immigrant who arrived here at 20 with a few thousand dollars, I’m very grateful and fortunate for the opportunities that have been afforded me.

I’ve pretty much chosen to stay out of this discussion and shall continue to do so after this post. That’s why I haven’t "rebutted" or responded to much that has been posted in this thread.

There have been good times and bad and there have been good President’s and bad ones... regardless of their party affiliation!

Of course we’ll pick up the pieces and get back on track. That’s the American way. Always has been, always will!

Have a great weekend people.

Steve

Okay, Steve, let’s vote for cloture on this topic and let it go to a vote on Tuesday. It won’t do any good for anyone to try to filibuster anyway, since this little group of ours couldn’t get a dog catcher elected in Mayberry even if we voted unanimously (which would NEVER happen!).

The most important thing is, educate yourselves as best as you can before you cast your ballot. Don’t buy what the mainstream media is selling without fact-checking elsewhere first. And if you don’t bother to take the time to really know the candidates and the issues, then do the rest of us a favor and don’t vote at all. We don’t need ignorance and emotional impulse determining our future.

And may the best man win.

Clem

Before we quiet this post....news flash....The Obama campaign has kicked three reporters off their plane,one The Dallas Morning News and another the New York Post,because they did not like the questions the reporters were asking.By doing so they are censoring any repoting by papers that may not simply accept what Obama says at face value. God forbid that someone ask the wrong question.The next voice that is quieted will be yours and mine.

I did hear about that, Jerry. What the reports said was that they were removing the three reporters (from the Dallas Morning News, the New York Post and the Washington Star, I believe, all of which papers endorsed John McCain) to make room for two photographers from Chicago who are making a documentary, plus a reporter each from Jet and Ebony magazines. If it’s true, it’s just another example of what’s coming, no big surprise. The Obama campaign reacts to criticism or real journalistic probing by kicking reporters off planes, hiding documents, filing lawsuits or calling people racists. I’m done with this topic...let’s talk plants!

Clem

AMEN Clem again!

Come on guys, don’t stop now. This thread is now almost as high on the list as "Business Ethics, and maybe by next Tuesday it will be surpass that topic as the most discussed topic on the Board.
Almost 2500 views in just a week. Would love to have some of those lurkers out there express their opinions. In my opinion this beats talking about mealy bugs or fungus gnats.
Rick

I’m with you Rick, I was just starting having fun.
Those who don’t like this thread don’t have to read it and I’m thinking may be
we should just kick them out of here altogether. Don’t you all think??
Patrice

Okay, I’ll bite. Since election day is Tuesday, let’s keep it going through then at least, with maybe a recap on Wednesday (if it’s been decided by then).

I heard a funny story on the news last night. In an effort to one-up the GOP for their concern about Acorn and voting irregularities, the Dems apparently planted a story about a phony letter being circulated in Virginia leading up to election day. As you know, VA is one of the states in play that traditionally goes Republican but this time is possibly going to Obama. So reports of a memo on realistic-looking Virginia Board of Elections letterhead being circulated there have raised Democrat hackles. Why, you ask? Because it supposedly reads something like this: Due to the predicted unusually high turnout for this year’s presidential election, the Virginia Board of Elections advises that all registered Republicans and independent voters leaning toward voting Republican should vote on Tuesday, November 4th, while all Democrats and independents leaning toward voting Democrat should vote on Wednesday, November 5th to avoid long lines and waiting times at their polling places.

The Dems are crying "foul!" But do they actually believe that any intelligent voter would fall for that ruse? Or are they maybe making an unintended statement about their estimation of the intelligence of the average Democrat partisan?

Let’s keep volleying this ball back and forth across the net ’til Tuesday.

Clem

P.S.: why don’t we see more people posting opinions on this thread? This is still America, after all, and you don’t have to worry about going public with your opinions. Stand up and be counted!

Why don’t we see more posts? I think a few reasons.
People have grown weary of having to scroll through this long post. People have not yet been promised by the democrats that if they actually read this entire post that they will be compensated by the government. So take that out of the equasion and its going to be a small number of people who will respond. I heard a rumor that if you wait until the 5th of November to respond as a democrat..
Well never mind...

I will be voting for Obama because he is the best of the worst IMO. I have always voted conservative and I will still vote conservative for every other office outside of the big P.

I am only afraid that Obama will scare away investors into countries such as Ireland for example, where income tax is roughly 11%. Forget taxing small business... Big money that is dumped into this country because of the opportunity will start flowing the other direction. I pray that Obama will not succeed with some of the extreme left ideals with regards to the economy, but I like him as a leader. I like him for promoting alternative energy. I like his ability to put HOPE in everything.

"We cannot expect the Americans to jump from capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving Americans small doses of socialism until they suddenly awake to find they have Communism."

- Soviet Leader Nikita Khrushchev, 1959

The above was a quote, and scary.

This is it in a nut shell.


Yesterday on my way to lunch, I passed one of the homeless guys in the area, with a sign that read "Vote Obama, I need the money."

In the restaurant, my waiter had on an "Obama 08 tee shirt.

When the bill came, I decided not to tip the waiter and explained to him while he had given me exceptional service, that his tee shirt made me feel he obviously believes in Senator Obama’s plan to redistribute the wealth. I told him I was going to redistribute his tip to someone that I deemed more in need-the homeless guy outside. He stood there in disbelief and angrily stormed away.

I went outside, gave the homeless guy $3 and told him to thank the waiter inside, as I had decided he could use the money more. The homeless guy looked at me in disbelief but seemed grateful.

As I got in my truck, I realized this rather unscientific redistribution experiment had left the homeless guy quite happy for the money he did not earn, but the waiter was pissed that I gave away the money he did earn.

Well, I guess this redistribution of wealth is going to take a while to catch on, with those doing the work.

Author unknown

John,

The quote is a good one. A change towards socialism wouldn’t happen
overnight.

We are already experiencing some degree of socialist policies with the bailout
of the banks and now possibly the automakers. And by the way these were
instigated and supported by the Bush administration and I don’t recall
reading any outrage posting on the mater.

I personally totally disagree with these bailouts anyway, they completely go
against the capitalistic system we have. These companies should have been
selling better and more reliable products and services and if they did not and
as a result they go down, then let it be.

Now let’s imagine you live in a small town of a hundred thousand and the
main industry is a car factory. The car factory closes down. You have 2 kids
and there is no way you can make it on 1 salary. If you don’t find a job within
6 month to a year after you spend all your savings, you are going to start
being a real drag on the economy.

Now don’t you think it is in everybody’s interest to help you financially so you
can either relocate or get educated and then get back on track as soon as
possible?

That would be a perfect example of "wealth redistribution". We take some
money out of my paycheck so we help you recover and in return our economy
is not disturbed. It is a form of socialism but in this case, one that works.

Now in every system there are cheaters.

There will always be the guy who just wants to take the money and not look
for a job. And for that we could have more control of who gets the money
and check if is it justified. But to do it you will need to hire more government
employees. So is it worth it? I don’t think so. I think you are just better off
admitting and realizing the imperfection of the system and look at the good
as a whole, the program does to help us all.

If there is a case for "wealth redistribution" I think this is what we are talking
about. And I know these programs are already in place.
Obama wants to expand them and create more. We will see if it’s a good
thing or not.

If it’s not then in 2 years we can just balance the power and in 4 years kick
him out.
That’s assuming the democrats win it all.

Your example of the waiter and the bum is just another perfect scenario
meant to mislead, scare and make people mad.
It is wrong way to look at the issue.

Patrice

Patrice,

It’s only been a few weeks since the bailout plan was passed, but it’s been years since the causative actions that resulted in the need to bail out banks and financial companies occurred, and you seem to have forgotten about that. If you did some fact-checking, you’d know that the bailout hasn’t gone to any manufacturing companies or other firms who simply failed to "sell better and more reliable products and services"...that money is targeted at banks and financial firms who got into trouble in the subprime mortgage fiasco that was created by pressure from top Democrat politicians who threatened them with serious penalties if they did not lend money to low-income and non-creditworthy borrowers.

That’s all water under the bridge at this point, though, and hopefully won’t happen again anytime soon. Your convoluted analysis of the guy who loses his manufacturing job is also mythical...that sort of scenario has played itself out over the past twenty years many, many times, and those workers who needed to move to a different part of the country to find work either did so or chose not to; those workers who needed to get re-trained or get more schooling to find a new job either did so or chose not to take advantage of the many programs that already existed for that purpose.

The kind of redistribution of wealth program we’re hearing about now has NOTHING to do with programs...it has to do with raising taxes on higher-income earners and giving REFUNDABLE TAX CREDITS (i.e., a check to people who don’t even pay any income tax now in most cases) to lower-income earners. Ask the French and the Germans and other western European countries how that turns out.

Clem

Taxes explained through BEER!

Every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100.
If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

the first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that’s what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. ’Since you are all such good customers,’ he said, ’I’m going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20. ’Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.The group still wanted to pay their bill th e way we pay our
taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers?

How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his ’fair share?’ They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody’s share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man’s bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so the fifth man, like the first four, now paid
nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 ( 22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% saving s).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to comp are their savings.
’I only got a dollar out of the $20,’ declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man,’ but he got $10!
’’Yeah, that’s right,’ ex claimed the fifth man. ’I only saved a dollar, too.. It’s unfair that he got ten times more than I!
’That’s true!!’ shouted the seventh man. ’Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!
’’Wait a minute,’ yelled the first four men in unison. ’We didn’t get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!
’The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night the tenth man ( the richest) didn’t show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without
him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn’t have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction.
Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat
friendlier.


David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.Professor of Economics University of Georgia
For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.

Beautiful, Douglas! And the postscript is the best part of Professor Kamerschen’s wisdom..."for those who do not understand, no explanation is possible."

Clem

My first post

Most of the comments here seem to be against the idea of the wealthy paying more in taxes to help America out of the mess that they the wealthy got us into. Are any of you willing to pay your employees more in wages, health insurance and other benefits so they can afford to keep up with the rising cost of goods and inflation? After all the poor little technician, installer, secretary and other operations personnel are the ones struggling the most. If the little guy cant afford to
pay his or her mortgage, rent, gas, their kids school clothing
or medical expenses how can some of the very companies we profit from by way of our services afford to continue to pay for our services if no one can afford to purchase their goods?

K Hill, good to see a new name. Welcome to the discussion.

You sem to point the finger of blame at the wealthy for the current crisis.Although they certainly play a part its perhaps not as one sided as that.The idea of "personal responsabilty" is overlooked as maybe the single most contributing factor.People that got in over their head with an ARM or simply purchased a home they could not afford is at the real root of the issue. Had that not happened there would be no crisis.No matter how much more you would want to tax responsable tax payers for their good judgement it would not be enough to offset the individuals who showed poor judgement and a lack of "personal responsability".Just to add to the problem I am going to assume those same irresponsable people with mortgages they can’t pay are probably living above their means in other areas of their financial life as well.So are we to reward the irresponsible and punish the responsible here? But to be sure I am not condeming those who by some unforeseen misfortune found themselves in this position.

PS..At a time when Republicans were calling for more oversight and regulation for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac [something which Rupublicans rarely do, ask for more regulation}The Democrats[Chris Dodd, Barney Frank, and Obama} were lining their campaign coffers with money donated from both Fannie nad Freddie in record proportions while objecting to any regulating and stating that both were "just fine" and that the Republicans were trying to keep the lower income class from homwe ownership!!

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/sam-dealey/2008/09/10/barney-franks-fannie-and-freddie-muddle.html

Thanks Jerry

I am not pointing fingers at the wealthy for this current situation and I am not for higher taxes. The blame is shared by the many who were not responsible. That includes the government, wall street and the average Joe. We as a country have consumed way too much. If people live within their means we would be better off. I have always lived within my means and been responsible in paying my taxes and bills. But when the house a few doors down is foreclosed and and sold in a fire sale way below market value, is not fair to me or the other responsible homeowners in my neighborhood.

The banks should have been more responsible with their lending practices by not allowing people to purchase things they knew they could not afford. The government sat back and allowed it all to happen. Obviously their business models and plans were flawed. That is what happens with greed.

The domino’s are falling and need to fall. Why should my tax paying dollars help bail out Wall street and the auto or airline industry? I firmly believe in capitalism. But how many car companies, department stores, fast food restaurants, etc. do we need? Companies will go bankrupt, merge or be acquired. That’s how capitalism works. And the government should not be in the business of assisting private business or bailing out business. If the government is spending tax dollars on a private business that is probably going to fail anyway, some money should be spent on the country to help create jobs via infrastructure and green technologies. I would rather see my tax dollars go towards building a better America. We have too much crap out there that people don’t need. If the little guy doesn’t get some kind of help then the big guy cant make money
too provide the jobs for consumers to make the purchases
for America to grow.

I think we all agree the government has to step in and help its just how much and who.

Kevin

It is ironic that the party that favors massive government oversight and intervention into just about every area of American business was the one to sandbag the other party’s attempts to do that in the mortgage mess. And there appears to be a direct correlation between the amount of campaign largesse given to certain Senators and Congressmen and their commitment to kill any such oversight and regulatory attempts in Congress. Chris Dodd even got a below-market mortgage deal from failed lender Countrywide Mortgage, according to federal investigators looking into the matter (finally)...and he was one of the Democrat foxes who was supposed to be guarding the Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac henhouse. Add to that the fact that the CEO’s and other top execs at those two government-backed entities are now top advisers to Obama, and you get the impression that nothing about this corrupt Congress is really going to "change" if he wins the election.

John McCain’s possibly fatal campaign error was NOT that he failed to go after the wackos Obama hangs with. It was that he needed to say one thing to the American people that would have virtually guaranteed his election: that he would go after each and every one of the corrupt business executives and government officials who profited from this mess and/or cost their investor clients losses and prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law, including seeking restitution for the monetary losses people suffered and criminal prosecutions that would put them in the federal penitentiary for a long, long time. He did not come forward and say that, and he will most likely reap the harvest of that mistake tomorrow.

Clem

As I recall it was Phil Graham and the republican party who removed the save guards put in place during the depression of the 30’s to prevent this
economic crisis from happening again. And the democrats sat back and
agreed with them and allowed the derivatives mess to happen again by
thinking wall street would "police itself" and let greed drive their business
into bankruptcy.

I thought the current government in power was for smaller government.
Interesting how they have expanded the governments role into private
business and wall street. And bankrupt the country. Like I said earlier there is
blame for both parties and most of the politicians in Washington.

I believe McCains campaign error was picking Palin and being railroaded by
the christian conservatives and not reaching out and including more moderate
republicans. The republicans had a chance to keep the White house but not
with McCain. He missed his opportunity in 2004 unfortunately.

America has moved on beyond the politics of the past. Its time for the
younger generation to step up to the plate and start participating in the
democratic process.

Kevin, I think you are refering to something else about the depression in the thirties.It was the fact that government did virtually nothing in the thirties that caused the "great depression" to be great and prolonged.Are you aware of what Barney Franks position is? If not please look it up and decide for yourself if the Republican administration is the party that stood by and watched while this all came down.If you are follower of the mainstream media you probably have missed any of that kind of coverage.

PS..........Try also ...the Senate Banking Committee Chairman...Chris Dodd

Clem,
John McCain would have been in a sticky situation had he called for the prosecution of those involved in the meltdown of the financial system. His campaign manager, Rick Davis was a paid lobbyist for Freddie Mac.

A friend forwarded this statement to me from Thomas Jefferson. I’m just full of quotes today ... sorry. I am always so impressed by the wisdom that our forefathers had. Why can’t we get people in roles of leadership that have great minds like these people. We as a nation have gotten away from just about everything that this nation was founded on. Moral, and Biblical values.

’I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.’
Thomas Jefferson 1802

Wow... you guys are on a roll!

Kevin, welcome to the board. Nice to see your perspective here ;)

John... "Why can’t we get people in roles of leadership that have great minds like these people?" Because they’re busy running the nations companies (into the ground).

I’ll be glad when this thread comes to an end and a whole other one starts tomorrow or Wednesday. Can’t wait to see that.

Steve

Steve, It will end soon enough. But first I want to point out that this has all in all been one of the most civil dicussions of this length I can ever recall.We can all have an opinion and if we are wrong take a different position somewhere in the future.

We are all American’s and need to be thankful we live in such a great country.Tomarrow history will be made one way or the other.It is a huge event and its happening in our lifetime.What a wonderful thing to have so many involved in the process of selecting the leader of the free world and the greatest country on earth.May the best candidate win and represent all of us faithfully.

GOD BLESS AMERICA !

Joe,

It wasn’t lobbyists for Fannie and Freddie that caused this mess...it was the people at the top of those two corporations and the elected politicians in the House and Senate who allowed them to loot the treasury (literally, now that we’ve had to bail them all out) who permitted the crisis to occur. If standards hadn’t been relaxed on unqualified borrowers, and if lending institutions hadn’t been bullied and threatened into accepting lower lending standards and low-income quotas, the derivatives and such would have had a sound footing. Garbage in, garbage out.

How does a government-sponsored institution like Fannie or Freddie get to have a lobbyist anyway? That’s like me lobbying me. I don’t have much use for our governor, Jon Corzine, but he did coin a very apt phrase to describe this kind of behavior..."the toxic mix of politics, money and public business" that plagues us every day of our lives, regardless of which party is in power at that moment.

BTW, I just heard a recorded comment by Barack Obama that he gave to an interviewer during the primaries last year that is also very telling about his attitude toward "Main Street". He threw out the standard, de rigeur statement that we will of course have to provide protection for low-income workers and the poor, but that he is convinced that we will have to see much higher electricity costs to train ourselves not to leave lights on or run our heating and air conditioning systems so much, and that companies that wish to build coal-fired electric-generating stations will have to be denied permits so that we can stop global warming. This guy is a garden-variety loon.

And please, don’t bash Sara Palin. She could probably govern circles around Barack Obama and Joe Biden put together. Too bad the McCain campaign didn’t know what to do with her after they nominated her. Her recent campaign appearances have been resounding triumphs of boots-on-the-ground, populist electioneering.

Clem

Jerry,
On your most recent post, I agree with you 100%!

Steve

Thank You KHill! I think too many people modeling themselves after Gordon Gekko (movie Wall Street) is the root cause of our current economic crisis. Greed! All out, never satiated, take no prisoners GREED! CEO’s who lay off workers and bankrupt their corporations while they take millions in bonus and salary money. Record profits for the oil companies while we get reamed at the pump and they make excuses and get away with it. Banks and mortgage Lenders that greedily made risky loan after risky loan. People who take risky loans greedy for more house than they can really afford. I bid a huge account that was serviced by the big interiorscape firm here. I was given a plant inventory in the bid package and after touring the account, had to point out that the count was over by about 300 plants. Upon investigation the company found that their interiorscaper had been defrauding the company by charging for new plants and containers that were never installed and maintenance for plants that did not exist. This interiorscaper has a Christian fish symbol in all his advertising. The problem is that people do things they know are wrong to get what they want, rationalize it to assuage the guilt they feel (or should be feeling) and then when they get away with it they feel vindicated and continue to do the wrong thing. Greed blinds people to what is right and "every one else is doing it" is used as rationalization. I wish the answer was as easy as just changing politicians, but I think we need a huge attitude adjustment as a nation. Of course my state is governed by The Terminator and my town’s mayor is "Bubba" from "In the heat of the night” so maybe if we made Forrest Gump President……

Steve:
Do you really believe that it will be all over by Wed AM? With all of the problems with voting in various states I can forsee not knowing for days, maybe weeks who really won if it happens to be as close as it was in Florida in any of the toss-up states that also have an Acorn problem.
All the more reason to extend this thread.
Rick

"And please, don’t bash Sara Palin. She could probably govern circles around Barack Obama and Joe Biden put together"

Has anyone noticed that Ms. Palin pronounces "nuclear" just like President George W. Bush!

Scary!

OK... you guys, I’m off to start a new thread about customer service.

Great discussion here, but I have a fun one for you. See you there :)

Steve

PS...Yes, Rick you’re possibly right on you last post here too.

Sarah Palin has provided so much humor this election, I will kind of miss her
when she’s gone.

The prediction that she will end up a mouthpiece on Hate TV or Radio makes
sense. Where else would a moose-burger eatin’, wolf shootin’ from a plane, non
evolution believin’, incurious, child exploitin’, ethically challenged, drillbabydrill
chantin’, Muslim fearin’ , I can see Russia from my house seein’, trooper firin’,
Iran/Iraq confusin’, non believer in the separation of church and state MORON
end up?

PS ~ That $150,000 wardrobe she is going to donate to Charity? She will likely
name her grandchild "Charity" so she can keep the duds. No way is she handing
any of that schwag back. Wasilla (the meth lab capital of Alaska) does not have
such high falutin’ elite stores such as Saks or Neimans.

Matt - I thought your kind was against bashing and hating on people for their beliefs or lifestyles. It sounds like what you are saying is because she isnt like you and doesnt think exactly like you or believe in exactly what you believe in, then she is to be reviled. And to think I had you pegged for a tolerant sort. I thought you better than that.

Matthew, I really didn’t think of all people it would be you to take this discussion down the drain.

Are you on the CNN payroll?

Well, we got this far by keeping the discussion civil and intelligent. Now that that’s been trashed. What’s next? An anonymous flaming orgy?

Clem

My final comments:
thank you for the stimulating exchange. I respect all opinions and think it’s
healthy to be able to express them without getting too agitated...!
If nothing else this has made us think and hopefully has helped us open our
eyes to other point of views.
It has done that to me.
Patrice

And PLEASE get on www.flickr.com/groups/908631@N20/ and let’s create a
nationwide photo database. (see my post)

Gosh Matthew,
If she was African American you would be called a racist filled with hate. I hope it is not just because is a intelligent lady. Are you open to Change ? Cut her a little slack she just may be YOUR president someday !


NOW GO VOTE....I did, a couple of times " say Acorn "


DM

Its amazing to me that someone would bash a person in favor of the control of wolf population as if it were an extremely immoral thing to do while at the smae time touting the virtues of someone that has no problem killing human babies.I am not advocating pro life or pro choice but trying to point out the irony here.There seems to be a total disconnect with the reality of this subject and its really puzzling to me how such a stance can be taken.

"...a total disconnect with...reality"...that accurately describes the problem we as a society face today. Too much dopey TV "reality", not enough real-life reality. We are becoming like the Roman empire, drowning in our own self-indulgence, giving people bread and circuses (i.e., "income redistribution" and the cult of professional sports/entertainment worship) instead of working out our problems the hard way. We lack the political will to ask people to work hard and not expect instant gratification, so we keep postponing the day of reckoning with respect to all of our problems...economic, security, whatever.

Until people tire of being looked down upon condescendingly by the political and social elites and demand better, we will continue to get the government we deserve...which is pretty awful. And the snobs among us are like a fifth column working to destroy us from the inside. They need to be marginalized again, instead of being given special status in our culture and political system. They need to realize that the rest of us can be compassionate and fair in dealing with minorities and special cases, but we are not willing to hand over the keys to our society to small, vocal elements who have designs on co-opting the system for their own use. The majority must be served, or no one will be served.

Clem

The majority will be served as they exercise their voting rights all over the country today.

Plant Lady, That is a long reach from what Clem meant..The TOTAL will be served by our forfathers wisdom in allowing us to express our choice of candidates and excercising our right to vote.That does not necessarily mean that the majority will be served by what happens afterward.To illustrate by your suggestion,the majority [who voted for Bush in the last election] would have no room to complain because they were served when they voted.

Jerry, In a sense, they WERE served. By then they were familiar enough with his style of governing. IMO, those who voted for him the second time around got what they wanted, what they voted for.

Plant Lady, that is a long reach from what Clem meant.....

[ I won’t confuse you with details]

~ A side effect of all this election frenzy? As one who is about to projectile vomit across the room if I hear "change"...
I was checking out today at lunch. The check out lady said "here’s your change" and I wanted to slap her.

Now that’s bad!

Oh well, I am off to prepare myself for "change I can believe in"..UGGGGG

Oh don’t worry Jerry, I’m pretty hard to confuse. I wasn’t always a Plant Lady. I had a different career goal in a former life ;)

I fully understood what Clem was talking about and can’t disagree with it. We ARE the Roman Empire and have been for quite a while.

I just disagree with how we got there and what it will take to move us away from that direction. We have been under Republican direction for 20 of the last 28 years. It’s real easy to slap a label on something and get people to believe it by calling it that over and over again, just ask PT Barnum.

Rick, you said:

"Steve:
Do you really believe that it will be all over by Wed AM? With all of the problems with voting in various states I can forsee not knowing for days, maybe weeks who really won if it happens to be as close as it was in Florida in any of the toss-up states that also have an Acorn problem.
All the more reason to extend this thread.
Rick"

OK... looks like we can extend it then ;)

Steve

Well guys (and girls) what I began really got some of you going. A real good discussion for the most part.

A decision has been made...some will agree with, and others will not agree with. Time has come to do what is necessary to correct the mistakes that have been made in the past (by both parties). It no longer makes sense to continue bashing the other side. We now have two years to see if things get deridingly better under the current leadership, and if not we then can say "Well I told you so", and at that time work to change (sorry Doug) the makeup of Congress.
It has been a good battle, and a good discussion right here, and what I began I will now end.
Rick

Thanks for starting such a good discussion Rick!

I think Mayor Guillioni (Forgive my spelling of his name) said it best on NBC last night. No matter who wins after the election, we all become Americans again.

Plant Lady..."Don’t worry Jerry I’m pretty hard to confuse. I wasn’t always a plant lady. I had a different career goal in a former life." What the....is that suppose to mean. Sounds like one of those snobs Clem was talking about!

Just to put into context what the American people have always desired in a great leader, here’s a link to a speech given in 1964 by Ronald Reagan on behalf of Sen. Barry Goldwater, who ran for President on the Republican ticket that year against Lyndon Johnson. I heard this speech replayed last night on a talk radio program out of NYC, and while I had heard small excerpts of it before, I had never listened to the entire speech until now. This is considered Reagan’s greatest oration, and you should take the opportunity to listen to the audio version on the same page to hear the passion and conviction in his voice to really appreciate it fully.

Some people give carefully-crafted speeches delivered smoothly and say almost nothing of substance, commit to nothing special and stand for nothing much at all out of fear of alienating some portion of their target audience. Reagan gave it to us straight and true, and he went on to deliver on his ideals and convictions when he became one of the greatest American presidents some years later. Enjoy.

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/ronaldreaganatimeforchoosing.htm

Clem

Dianne ....I considered Jerry’s response to me to be snobbish and patronising. Does he think that, because I take care of plants for a living, I’m too unintelligent/ill-informed to understand world affairs or political matters because that is how his response comes across.

Uhhh...snobbish and patronising Plant Lady... I would kinda sorta think that Jerry kinda sorta takes care of plants for a living too.... Wouldn’t you kinda sorta think so? What WAS your former life if now you are JUST a plant lady?

Plant Lady, I think you ARE smart enough to know what Clem meant and when I replied to your post with an explantion it wasn’t just for YOUR benefit.But when you decided to take a turn into left field with your reply I decided simply to restate my post leaving off the details which you didn’t address anyway.I wasn’t looking for an argument about what Clem said but its obvious you are with both of us.So if you want to go off on some rant unrelated to what either of us said...go ahead...amuse yourself.

I will restate....that was and still is "a long reach from what Clem meant". So ...go ahead and argue that if you like.I will still leave off the details so as not to confuse you away from the point!!

In addition if you can’t understand why your comment is insulting and may upset someone who is a plant lady or guy then I won’t try to explain that to you either.

So this is alive again!

Did you hear that the Obama’s have finally decided on the breed and name for the girls’ new puppy?

American Pit Bull named Sarah!

:) and lighten up guys.

Steve

Whew. Let’s all be glad A Plant Lady does not work for Diane... wasn’t she the
one who wanted to fire anyone who voted differently than she?

Please keep thinking and asking questions Plant Lady. It is good to hear from all
perspectives here. No chance of losing your job for having differing viewpoints.
Most of us do not find your questions snobbish at all. There is nothing ’elite’
about being a real American.

Quite frankly most of us would never consider firing anyone with different
political views. We would probably enjoy the conversation.

And Steve, what kind of puppy do you think the Obamas will get? They are
talking about a rescue dog, but one of the kids is allergic.
Labradoodle/Greyhound mix? And I think it will be GREAT to have little kids in
the White House again! And the Obama children are adorable.

Matthew..I was not the one who wanted to fire my employees who voted differently, that was Dawn. No one has a problem with Plant Lady’s questions(come to think of it she had no questions, just complaints and opinions) its her attitude. I’m with Jerry, she has a chip on her shoulder. Reading her earlier posts, she is a disgruntled employee. That would be my grounds for dismissal!

What’s gotten into Barack anyway?

Ever since the election, he’s been trying his best to become the butt of jokes on Saturday Night Live, it would appear.

First he calls himself a mutt and makes a flippant remark about Nancy Reagan holding seances in the White House, for which he did apologize.

Next, it’s being circulated that he wants to end the federal tax deferral for contributions to and earnings on 401(k) and IRA accounts in order to increase revenue collections without "raising taxes" on the middle class (isn’t ending a tax deferment the same as raising taxes?).

Now he may be about to pick former Clinton Assistant Attorney General Jamie Gorelick to be Attorney General of the United States...this yet another former top official at Fannie Mae during the scandal-ridden late 1990’s (and someone with NO prior training or experience in finance), and yet another Clintonista possibly about to be appointed by the self-styled "change" guy (see: Rahm Emanuel and John Podesta, both Clinton staffers)! What’s next, Hillary as Secretary of State? Uh-oh, shouldn’t have said that out loud...

Add to this brew the recorded statement by an Obama spokeswoman that he is "ready to rule"...not govern, not lead, but RULE.

How did that old Toyota commercial jingle go..."you asked for it, you got it..."

Clem

Clem,
Didn’t Rick put this thread to rest last week!

I think it’s best to keep the thread alive indefinitely, or at least until we see some sort of definitive policy moves that will allow us to judge whether Obama’s original promises to give tax relief to the middle class pan out. We can always revisit it from time to time so we have a running history within a single thread.

Whatever the new administration has planned will affect each of our businesses and those of our clients. That makes this topic fair game for continuing...don’t you agree, Rick? And that includes developments that reflect positively or negatively on the evolution of the new administration’s devotion to or dereliction of the "change" mantra. Will we see real, meaningful, positive change, or was that just a slogan? Will it be more of the same backroom politics, just wearing blue instead of red? These are important questions that need to be asked and re-asked as time goes on...considering that the mainstream media have abrogated their responsibility to ask the tough questions of this man since he began his campaign nearly two years ago, it’s up to the people to hold him to his promises.

I’m a people...are you a people? Or a sheeple?

Clem

OK Clem,

I guess with or without Rick’s blessing, this thread is still alive ;)

How about we let the President-elect take office and give him a chance to begin implementing his stuff before we begin "holding him up to his promises"

How about that!

Steve

Go For It guys (& gals). You certainly have my blessing. I can see this going on for many many pages.
Rick

If memory serves me correctly, our businesses and economy weren’t in such bad shape 8 years ago. So what is wrong with bringing back some of the people who understood what worked? Of course, they will adapt to the changes that have occurred, such as the Fannie Mae issues. They are thinking people...something we haven’t seen for a while...in my humble opinion. (Yeah, I’ll have to take a hit for such a strong statement.)

Julie

Julie,

All due respect, but many of the people who have worked to elect Senator Obama president and whom he has selected to work in his upcoming administration are the SAME people who were running Freddie and Fannie when they got us into this situation! I understand that many, many Americans went to the polls filled with hope that a change would do us good, but that doesn’t mean we should go forward wearing the same kind of blinders that got us into this mess to begin with.

And Steve, if I campaign on a platform that has several major planks regarding taxes, health care, the economy, etc., and within a week of my election, I’m already hedging on all of them, shouldn’t I expect people to raise an eyebrow? Our governor in NJ did just that when he ran for the office, but at least it took him a year or so after he was sworn in to pull the rug out from under his own campaign promises. The word already leaking out from the Obama administration-to-be is very reminiscent of that old Gilda Radner character on Saturday Night Live, Emily Litella: "Oh, never mind."

Clem

Yes, Freddie Mac/Fannie Mae contributed to this mess and yes some of the large mortgage companies contributed to this mess with "deceptive’ practices.
We always seem to forget the other "people" who contributed to the housing problem; the new homeowners who BLINDLY signed for mortgages without reading all the requirements of the loan. These are people who had no business financing mortgages they could barely afford. Take time to read all the contracts before you sign for a large amount of money that you will be spending over 15 to 30 years
. ARM=adjustable rate mortgage??? Duh-that must mean it may go up over a couple of years-hmmmm maybe we should plan for the potential increased expense that may be required when our interest rate goes up!
Always someone elses problem-not my fault attitude! Talk about "sheeple".

All that being said, I agree with Julie-at least we have thinking people taking over the administration.

"Thinking people".Hmm.... I will take a guess that all it takes to fix all the problems of our country is "thinking people" in our Executive branch to show all the rest of the world how to run a country..If that is so it should be easy for Obama to fix all the problems we face with nothing more than his command to do so.After all, most people that voted for him are thinking people too and will follow him without question.

ooops, didn’t mean that I expect the new administration to solve all our problems or do all our thinking. No way is that going to happen-this cleanup will be going on for years and years and will have to be solved by many, not just a few at the top.

I’m just happy to see someone thinking in the new administration......

John,

Don’t you think that many of the people who are currently working in the federal government in the Bush administration are "thinking people"? If not, what are they, lobotomized zombies who collect a paycheck and do nothing else all day? Amazing how the country has managed to continue to run for the past eight years with such people running it.

As for the people who signed on for mortgages they couldn’t afford, I share your disdain for their greed and/or ignorance. Just as I consider the activists in Congress and certain community organizations who lobbied for these over-ratio and unqualified loans to be made to these people to be ignorant and greedy to have put them up to it. If the advocates for the Community Reinvestment Act programs had not bullied the financial industry into extending credit to non-creditworthy applicants just to satisfy their social engineering goals, this would not have happened, at least not to the degree it did.

We need to hold our government officials and elected politicians responsible for this mess...they knew better and let it happen.

Clem

Clem,

Just meant the guy in the oval office. I think he has brains-I’m just not sure he knew how to use them on occassions! I do think the rest of the government knows how to think.

I share your thoughts also on Ronald Reagan-he was a great president. He brought the patriotism back into this country. I have always voted for the person-not the party.

I completely agree with you about holding our politicians (both Republicans and Democrats) accountable for this mess-it is unbelievable how this completely spiraled out of control!

John, plesae don’t take this as a knock on you. I think you are right in that this mess will take a long time to work out.But I also think that the government is not the answer.Many who ran for office with promises of things they could not possibly do will also make excuses as to why they can’t or claim the mess was bigger and worse than they thought and then preceed to blame it on someone else.They will ask for more time. They will make more excuses. And if somewhere along the way things improve they will take credit for it even though it is just a matter of things running their course.Its kinda like what a country doctor {my doctor} said to me when I had a bad cold."I can prescribe this medication for you and you will get over your cold in about 7 days". I asked him how long will it take to go away if I don’t take the medication. He said" bout a week". I am concerned that this new administration will have too much slack and won’t be held accountable for what they screw up and will blame on others 4 years from now or even 8 years from now.When I saw people at Obamas acceptance speech kneel, hold their hands up to the heavens and cry as if just touched by their Savior it quite frankly was a bit scary.I think Obama being elected can be a great thing for our country but at the same time I see the potential for a real scary "perfect storm" that could change our country in a way that almost none of us would like. As an American I will support him as our President.

Jerry,
I do agree with you that if we rely on the government to help us out than we get what we deserve!

It goes back to what i tried to say before, we all should be held accountabe for our actions. I usually try to take responsibility for my own actions and the messes I have gotten in to. I do believe that people were encouraged to sign these bad loans but honestly, read the fine print before signing anything-I do. I get mad at the stupidity and the people who got into these bad mortgages now trying to gather my sympathy.

I DO NOT believe Obama is a "savior" or can alone pull us out of this mess. It takes a village (I’m being sarcastic with this point!). I think some people were just emotional because he did win considering his race and past, historic obstacles (some may have a messiah complex though-that’s unforunate).

Now, I think this is the one post that should go in reverse order. It is taking me 5 minutes to scroll down to the bottom because it is soooooooooooooo long-ha ha.

Jerry, you said:

"Many who ran for office with promises of things they could not possibly do will also make excuses as to why they can’t or claim the mess was bigger and worse than they thought and then proceed to blame it on someone else.They will ask for more time. They will make more excuses. And if somewhere along the way things improve they will take credit for it even though it is just a matter of things running their course"

That’s called a "politician" my friend. Doesn’t matter whether s/he’s a Dem., Ind. or Rep.

It just is!

I thought I was done with this one....oh well...

Just wanted to share the story of this man I met with on several occasions as
he was the boyfriend (not for long) of a good friend of ours.

He was a mortgage broker and did very very well during the years anybody
could buy a house.

His target clientele was the poor Hispanics (He is one himself, Hispanic, not
poor) and his trick was to get people to trust him so he could sell them
anything he wanted to and screw them in the process (excuse my French). He
was telling us that ANYBODY qualified, he didn’t even check their credit
before pre approving them.
To gain his potential target’s trust, he had imprinted on his business card the
little Christian fish with on the back some Scriptures.

When I saw his card I asked him about the reasons why he had that on,
thinking he didn’t really come across as such a devoted religious person. His
answer was "as soon as they see that, they think you are a good guy and then
you can do whatever you want to."

Needless to say he is a scumbag, (spelling??) our friend dumped him and
moved on.

And of course the majority and brokers are good and honest people.

The reason I brought up this story: I understand it’s people’s responsibility to
be fully aware of what they are getting in to, BUT a lot of people are not very
smart (the reason you are above average is because of all the ones below
average) and when they meet somebody they think they can trust, then they
just put the responsibility on them. Just like you tend to do with your doctor.
Buying a house is a big and scary deal when you do it for the first time. Many
thought they would never be able to do it and when they met somebody who
all of a sudden made that dream come true, they said well if he thinks we can
do it then he must be right. They didn’t think twice. They should have but
they were mislead and poorly informed.

So to conclude, there is responsibility on the part of the buyer but the sellers,
wether they were banks or brokers. also had their share. And the government
should also have added regulations so people get the right info and are not
mislead.

I am not talking about EVERY buyer here, but It’s my belief that a good
portion fit in that scenario.

Patrice

Patrice,
I would agree that we all need to take responsibility for our actions and accordingly, I would agree that the parties who are/were responsible for the "enticements" should be held just as accountable as the parties who were enticed!

To put this in perspective for the naysayers here, how many times have you gone to a website or installed some software and clicked on the accept terms of service button?

Did you read those "terms of service" or did you just click on "OK" because you wanted to install the software or get access to the website, or pay you bill or get your FREE listing.

Who here can say that we haven’t clicked on "OK" without "really" knowing what we’re agreeing to.

To place the blame entirely on any one party (I don’t mean that politically) is impossible!

This "is" an interiorscape website right? I suggest we get back to the business of interiorscape discussion and leave the politics to another forum.

Anyone know a good reliable source for juncus spiralis?

Steve

Steve,

I have to disagree with you about limiting the scope of topics on this forum. Anything that affects how our businesses are run is fair game here, and that most certainly includes how our government and political system are planning to "change" in that regard. Taxes, regulations, interest rates, availability of credit, etc. are all legitimate concerns of each of us as businesspeople.

Other industry websites feature more general discussions of politics, government and finance simply because they all play an integral part in our business lives on a daily basis, as well as in the big picture.

This thread contains an amazing amount of intelligent discussion (and the usual few uncivilized remarks) that is definitely of value to our industry. To try to cut off that discussion implies that we should be uncomfortable about talking with one another about our common interests as American citizens and businesspeople, which would be a mistake for an industry forum that takes its role as an educator of our colleagues seriously. It all relates to our industry...just as in a natural ecosystem, you can’t ignore one facet and hope to understand the rest of the system.

There are many other threads that receive their due here, so what’s the harm in this one sharing the forum? If it’s not your cup of tea, each of us is free to participate or not participate in any given discussion.

Clem

OK Clem. Fair enough.

Steve

I heard today that the new administration is planning to investigate the interrogation of the mastermind of the 9/11 attack that killed 3000 people.The Barack "Hussein" Obama camp said they thought that the waterboarding of the [piece of crap] mastermind was thought to be torture and that possible criminal charges would be filed against all involved.All I can think of is AHHHH....why didn’t they cut his *&)#@ off first and simply shoot him second?? I appologize if I have offended anyone or hurt their feelings. I take it back. JUST SHOOT HIM !!

Jerry,
If you shoot him then you are lowering your standards to those we are fighting.
If we are going to be the leaders in human rights and justice then everybody
must get a fair trial.
This is not cowboy land anymore.
Patrice

Jerry,

I’m curious why you chose to put President Obama’s middle name in parentheses?

Are you suggesting that there’s something somehow flawed with having a middle name as such?

While I agree with you in principle that any mastermind of any terrorist attack should have his nuts cut off, "due process" is what we’re all about!

Did you run out and stock up on your ammo yet? I hear that’s been happenin’ a lot!

God. Why can’t I just keep my mouth shut and stay away from this thread?

Guess Clem was right. It’s got a life of its own.

;)

Patrice,Steve, You both are missing my point.The point is do you really care if the bastard who masterminded the killing of 3000 of our fellow Americans is waterboarded?? I am sick and tired of those who would whine about this like a sniveling fool.We didn’t exactly electrify his nuts like the enemy we are fighting would. It is a scary but non invasive form of interrogation.And in the meanwhile we have avoided further attacks as a result of the information we got. Now,which is more important to you...Avoiding another 3000 innocent Americans killed... OR...feeling sorry for the guy who killed the first 3000. Remember, this was an act of war and should not be even remotely put in the same context as a civilian matter.So ......make a choice 1] waterboard 2] risk another 3000 innocent American lives ??

As for the comments about ammo and guns...c’mon....this is the kind of thing people say when nothing else is making sense either!

PS...Steve I almost forgot. No ...there is nothing wrong with his middle name and its curous that the liberal left wing media must have thought something was wrong with it cause they NEVER mentioned it!!

Oh and Patrice,your right this is not cowboy land anymore...I think cowboy land is in Iraq where they used the preferred cowboy method..HANGING.like they did "H"

Well...my mind is blown! I only read 1/3 of the way through all this crap and now I know why after years of knowing about this site I have stayed away.

I have never read so much veiled hatred, bigotry and just plain ugliness.

Tell me something, what does any of this have to do with Interior Plantscaping?

Truly sorry my first experience with your board has to be my last....sad.

seriously jim.

you expect us to think that for years you’ve known about this site and this is the first time you bothered to look at it?

did you consider reading any or the thousands of OTHER threads that are relative to Interior Plantscaping?

don’t worry about this being your first/last post here.

we never missed you before :)

now if you’d like to contribute something constructive or helpful, feel free to do so ;)

Got anything good to say?

Looking over the interior plantscape business, it seems to be
barely anything relating to this sort of business. Back in
the 70’s when "DECO PLANTS" was going to be a big thing, I
guess houseplant parties and consultants for the same are very
unlikely anymore. Does anyone hear of houseplant consultants
anymore?

Houseplants at chain stores are so cheap these days that they are pretty much disposable, seasonal home decor, not permanent plants. Very few homeowners are willing to pay someone to come into their homes to care for their indoor plants. Houseplants are treated like pets, very personal to the people who own them, not something to be contracted out like lawn care.

There are some affluent homeowners who have very busy schedules that keep them away from their homes a lot of the time and can afford the luxury of a plant service for their interior plants, but they are few and far between these days. And again, going to the Big Box once or twice a year to pick up fresh plants is a more economical option for most people than a recurring bill for service and all the inconveniences that go with trying to schedule someone to come in when you’re home, or giving out keys/access codes to your home to strangers.

BTW, Ronald, how did you wind up on this godforsaken, old thread with your questions? Anyway, welcome to ’Scaper Talk!

Clem